Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Because of unbelief, Israel wandered in the wilderness 40 years, and later Jesus was only sent to Israel, and because of unbelief they too were "broken off".

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Predestination, that is "Just God's will", doesn't need anything to "Justify" God's action,

If God's will is the only thing that condemns/justifies us, then the law, any violations of the law is made "VOID",

It's not the law that condemns/justifies, but God's will.

If our guilt/innocents isn't judged by the law, then Jesus's death to fulfil the law, served "NO PURPOSE".

Any "Arbitrary".."Elections" with no regards for the law (just God's will) is a violation of the law,

Because it is the "WILL" not the "LAW" that is condemning/Justifying,

Of course the "Will" doesn't need the law to be fulfilled to accomplish it's goal.

Predestination nullifies the law, both to condemn and to Justify. (Jesus's death)

Israel, and only Israel, are referred to as "elect", prior to being saved, and only for the sake of the "Father" keeping his promise to Abraham,

but even here, they'll have to have faith in Jesus before their names are on the "elect list".

 

Thanks Darren. We may disagree within the household of faith, but it is imperative that we are open and honest in our disagreements. How can one side rightly put forth their case if the other not only refuses to know what they are saying, but purposely misrepresents them and their position?

That is what Benefactor is doing.

 

You are doing the same thing that Benefactor did, takeing a statement out of context in an attempt to prove a falsehood. What I don't know is whether your purpose is malicious as is that of Benefactor.

 

The initial statement in your OP was false and I believe deliberately false, therefore, I believe it to be malicious. You are not that ignorant of what those who hold to the Doctrines of Grace, or as you call them Calvinists, believe about Salvation. If you are you should not have started the OP. It was obvious from your further remarks in the OP that you were being unnecessarily provocative. The initial false statement was sufficiently provocative and certainly does not indicate any kindness toward a so-called Calvinist.

Furthermore, I believe that your analysis of the two articles from the Canon of Dort was deliberately false. A careful reading of Article 12 clearly shows that you were incorrect.

Two additional facts:
1. I am not judging you. That is God's purview. I am simply expressing my opinion based on what you have presented on this thread.
2. I am not a Calvinist. Belief in the Biblical Doctrine of Election, The Biblical Doctrines of Grace, or The Sovereignty of God in salvation does not a Calvinist make.

 

One more time. Let's say it s-l-o-w-l-y for you now. It does NOT say that after God has done His part is still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, What is says is...(as you put it)
But this
-----is in no wise effected merely
-----by the external preaching of the gospel,
-----by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation,

that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted;

-------------so that all in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner, -------are certainly,
------infallibly, and
------effectually regenerated,
------and do actually believe. -

One more time Benny. It says the regeneration God performs is in NO WISE EFFECTED BY ... so that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not....

In other words it says the opposite of what you are claiming. You are either arguing out of ignorance or sheer malicious falsehood. In either case you have self-exempted yourself from any serious consideration until you admit your error.

 

On the upside, at least this document is hard to understand. After seeing what Bennie has done with the much easier passages of the Bible, it isn't any surprise that he does it with a much harder one.

 

YOU ARE TOTALLY, ABSOLUTELY WRONG; ADMIT IT. SURELY YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THOSE WHO WROTE THE CANONS WERE STUPID; THAT THEY WOULD CONTRADICT THEMSELVES?

THE STATEMENT READS: BUT THIS REGENERATION IS IN NO WAY BROUGHT ABOUT merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or SUCH a mode of operation, that after God has performed his part [REGENERATION] it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted;

THIS STATEMENT IS SAYING EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE IT SAY. A VERSION OF THESE TWO ARTICLES IN MODERN ENGLISH HAS BEEN POSTED. DID YOU READ IT. EVEN WITHOUT READING IT A THOUGHTFUL READING OF THE TRANSLATION YOU POSTED DOES NOT SUPPORT WHAT YOU SAY. IT IS MADNESS TO CLAIM THAT IT DOES.

FURTHERMORE, IF WHAT YOU CLAIM IS TRUE THEN THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER.

 

As a result of the wording of the phrase Ben produced not from my knowledge of Calvinism. As I explained. Why you would think that is classed malicious I have no idea??

Darren

 

And why has no one answer my post 61 concerning the law??

 

Ephesians 2:1-8.

Apparently you really don't understand what occurs in Salvation in its entirety. I have posted the following before but here it is again.

Salvation, A Multifaceted Gem

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect by the Holy Spirit through union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God.

Salvation is a once for all time occurrence in the life of the elect. However, as we see explicitly in Romans 8:28-30, and throughout Scripture, there are a number of events that are associated with salvation. In some of these man takes an active roll but in most of them he is entirely passive. If we consider salvation, this blessing of grace, as a multifaceted gem, we may better appreciate both the gift of salvation and the work of God, in particular God the Holy Spirit, in the salvation of those whom God the Father, before the foundation of the world, has chosen in Jesus Christ, God the Son.


1. Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ [Ephesians 2:1-9].


2. Union with Jesus Christ

Union with Jesus Christ is an integral part, a condition, of God’s electing grace and this union is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit.


3. Effectual Calling

Insofar as man himself is aware, the initial event in salvation is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. It is an observable fact that not all who hear the Gospel accept it and come to salvation. The regenerate do, the unregenerate do not.


4. Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.


4a. Saving Faith

Saving faith is an essential aspect of conversion and, though exercised by man, is itself a gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9] The prophet Habakkuk who writes [2: 4b]: the just shall live by his faith, is echoed by the Apostle Paul in that great faith chapter of the New Testament, Hebrews 11, which clearly demonstrates that faith is, in fact, a way of life.


4b. Repentance

Like faith repentance is also an essential aspect of conversion. However, the repentance associated with conversion must be proceeded by faith, that is, a person cannot truly repent of his sins against God until he believes that God is and that he has sinned against God.


5. Pardon

A righteous God cannot overlook sin for the wages of sin is death [Romans 6.23]. Man is not a sinner because he sins but man sins because he is a sinner. As such he is subject to the wrath of God [Romans 5:12, Romans 1:18]. All who exercise God given repentance obtain forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Forgiveness or pardon implies deliverance from the penalty of sin.


6. Justification

Justification is a judicial act whereby the unjust sinner is declared righteous in the sight of a just and holy God. John Dagg in his Manuel of Theology [page 265] notes that justification is a higher blessing of grace than pardon. Pardon frees from the penalty that follows sin, justification frees us from the guilt of sin. Justification is by faith alone [Romans 5:1] and that faith itself is the gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9].

7. Adoption

God adopts as sons all who believe in Jesus Christ [Galatians 3:26, 1 John 3:1, Romans 8:16,17]. Although we are called the sons of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ this does not mean that we occupy the same position relative to God the Father as Jesus Christ [John 10:30-33, Colossians 2:9, Philippians 2:5-10]. When God the Son took upon Himself the form of man He laid aside His Glory but not His Deity. Though we are called the sons of God by adoption we will never be divine.


8. Sanctification

The Holy Spirit continues to sanctify those whom He has regenerated and finally prepares them fully for the service and enjoyment of life in the presence of God.


9. Perseverance or Security of the True Believer

The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by most Baptists. The statement from the 1677 [or 1689] Baptist Confession of Faith [Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith, page 272] expresses this doctrine in the following excerpt:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourishish them in Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality).


10. Assurance of Salvation

If we do not believe that True Believer’s are kept by the power of God and will persevere to the end it is doubtful that we can ever have any assurance of our salvation. Therefore, every passage of Scripture that demonstrates the security of the believer should provide the believer assurance of that security. The first basis for assurance is the testimony of the Word of God. The second basis for assurance of salvation is subjective. The Apostle John tells us [1 John 5:10]: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself. That witness is the indwelling Holy Spirit


11. Glorification

God will bring to glory those He has saved through the sacrifice of His Son. Glorification is the final facet on the gem of salvation. Redemption is complete, the sin struggle is over. We who are heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17] will be like Him for we will see Him as He is [1 John 3:2].

Although Regeneration is the initial event in Salvation which includes Union with Jesus Christ followed by the Effectual Call and Conversion the other aspects are not necessarily in chronological order. These aspects of Salvation are essentially the same as presented by Martyn Lloyd-Jones in his book God the Holy Spirit.

 

Calvinist continue to point to passages such as Eph 2:1-9 and assume that "quickens" meaning renew or reborn or "regenerate" happens BEFORE a person believes. I find no where in the context to suggest that to be the case.

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Christ quickened us together with HIM once we were saved, NOT before. In fact any term describing born again, spiritually alive, given a new heart..etc the Calvinist usually will say that occured BEFORE a person believes and is saved. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Whenever a non Calvinist points that out the Calvinist replies that the non Calvinist simply does not understand Salvation...etc

I think that in order to support 4 points of Calvinism, regeneration MUST precede faith in Christ, that's why its assumed to be the case, thus when a person excercises saving faith (in the Cal's view) and is saved, it is not as significant (than the non Cal view) in the sense that God had already changed (regenerated, quickened, renewed, spiritually alive, new heart..etc) them previously.

That to me is putting the cart before the horse. :smilewinkgrin:

Darren

 

repentance must be proceeded by faith, a person cannot truly repent of his sins against God until he believes,

Conversion is conscious act of a regenerate person responds to the effectual call in faith and repentance, an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.

Saving faith is an essential aspect of conversion, itself a gift of God

Your words.

"If" Faith proceeds "repentance", and

"conversion" is a regenerated person responding by a "gift from God", "Faith", and then repents",

God has just regenerated an UN-Repentant sinner.

I'll have to give you an "F" for "Reading comprehension".

 

You hit the proverbial nail on the head. And I did not think you had it in you! Obviously if Regeneration is the initial event in Salvation God regenerates an unrepentant sinner. Tell me how can one who is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins do anything relative to his salvation? Perhaps you can pull off another miracle.

 

Perhaps you need new specs.

Quickened is translated made alive in many newer translations. The Scripture you quoted certainly does not indicate any action on anyones part other than God. I always thought together meant together. Do you have a different meaning? You are adding something that is not there. I suggest you read John's warning in Revelation 22.

Since I am not a Calvinist you will have to consult with them. I simply believe what the Bible teaches, don't you?

Since I am not a Calvinist you will have to consult with them. I simply believe what the Bible teaches, don't you?

 

You are asking the wrong question because of unclear conceptions of what constitutes 'salvation'.

We do not say "salvation preceded faith", but that "regeneration precedes faith". Big difference.

Faith is an aspect of salvation, as is regeneration, as Old Regular has ably pointed out.

In John 3 Jesus says, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." The new birth must precede a man even "seeing" the kingdom, let alone being in it!