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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jan 19, 2022.

  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Was Christ "eternally generation?"
    Was Christ "incarnation?"

    This question was presented in a recent thread, and I gave the following response:
    For the casual reader of the BB who may not know the difference between the two terms.

    The "eternal generation" is the view that the Father (God) who is the eternal one begat the Son through Mary.

    The "incarnation" is the view that the Son (God) who was always a part of the trinity as fully God as the Father and Spirit, took on the physical attributes of being fully human form from birth to death.

    I do not find "eternal generation" consistent with the balance of Scriptures.

    John 1 states that "In the beginning was the Logos" and that everything was created by the Logos. Logos is both the thought and the word from that thought. It is impossible for God to be without either.​

    What are your thoughts?
     
  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    this is not what it means
     
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps you better explain and furnish your source material for your reasoning.

    The doctrine of eternal generation essentially teaches that God the Father eternally and by necessity generates or begets God the Son in such a way that the substance (divine essence) of God is not divided. The Person of God the Son derives His deity from this generation. In other words, there is a communication of the whole, indivisible substance of the Godhead so that God the Son is the exact representation (or express image) of God the Father. There is still one divine essence that eternally exists in two persons through eternal generation. What is the doctrine of eternal generation and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

    Perhaps you might consider this thinking correct, but I do not.

    At no time did the "Father" generate or beget the "Son" with the exception of the incarnation of Christ in the birth of the messiah.
     
  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I will wait to see if clarification will be given on another definition for “eternal generation” before responding to the specific terms.

    However, I can express my beliefs without any external terms.

    I believe that the Father, Son and Spirit have always existed in their tri-unity relationship (and will always so exist). Their relationship is not subject to change. The Father has always been, and will always be the Father. The Son has always been, and will always be, the Son. The Holy Spirit has always been, and will always be, the Holy Spirit.

    The Son is eternally submissive to the Father, yet in no way inferior. The Son chooses, in love, to place His mission below (in service to) the mission of the Father. The Holy Spirit is eternally submissive to the Father and Son, yet in no way inferior. The Holy Spirit chooses, in love, to place His mission below (in service to) the mission of the Father and Son.

    Because the will of the Father, Son and Spirit are in perfect unity, there is no conflict between the “persons” to divide the unity of the three-in-one GODHEAD. It is a perfect dance of agape love (placing ‘other’ above ‘self’) in a unity of purpose and a division of responsibility.

    Even the INCARNATION was a coordinated effort among all three ‘persons’ to achieve the common goal of the incarnation of the SON through the power of the SPIRIT to the glory of the FATHER in order to draw those whom GOD loved into the family.

    I will let others apply the correct theological terms to what I believe.
     
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  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    RANK HERESY!
     
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    What you have written in the OP, is

    The "eternal generation" is the view that the Father (God) who is the eternal one begat the Son through Mary

    This says that ONLY God the Father is "the eternal one", Who "begat the Son through Mary", which can also mean, that before this time Jesus Christ did not exist! This is RANK HERESY!
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    then please show from any place in the Bible, where we see, "The Son is eternally submissive to the Father", as it is IMPOSSIBLE!
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    As defined in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

    "God and the Holy Trinity

    3. In the unity of the Godhead there are three persons, having one substance, power, and eternity:
    God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.32 The Father exists. He is not generated
    and does not come from any source. The Son is eternally generated from the Father, 33 and the
    Holy Spirit eternally comes from the Father and the Son.34
    32. 1 Jn 5.7, Mt 3.16-17, 28.19, 2 Cor 13.14, Eph 2.18.
    33. Jn 1.14,18, 17.24, Heb 1.2-6, Col 1.15-17.
    34. Jn 15.26, Gal 4.6

    This is UNBIBLICAL HERESY

    The Father is YHWH. The Son is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH

    By definition the Name of God YHWH means:

    "Yahweh, the proper name of the God of Israel...the one bringing into being, life-giver, giver of existence, creator, he who brings to pass...he who causes...the one who is: i.e. the absolute and unchangeable one, the existing, ever-living"
    (F Brown, S R Driver and C A Briggs; Hebrew and English Lexicon, pages 217-218)

    This is true for The Three Persons of the Holy Trinity EQUALLY.

    When Jesus Christ tells the Jews in John 8:58, "before Abraham even existed I AM" (the literal Greek), He is referring to the Name given by Himself to Moses in Exodus 3:14, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh", which is best translated in English as, "I am that I am", that is, "The Eternal God".

    YHWH is a verbal form of the root hwh, which is an older variant of the root hyh “to be.” Te vowel of the first syllable shows that the verb is used in the form of a future-present causative hiphʿil, and must therefore mean “He causes to be, He brings into existence"

    The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), they render the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14, by "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which literally has the meaning, "I am He Who Exists", or "I am the Eternal One".

    The very Name YHWH desrtoys the HERESY of "eternal generantion"!




     
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  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The "eternal generation" is the claim of the eternal Sonship having no beginning being caused by the eternal generation from the Father.

    There are some who believe the Sonship began with His incarnation.
     
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Submissive:
    [Jhn 4:34 NKJV] 34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.
    [Jhn 6:38, 40 NKJV] 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. ... 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

    What does it mean to be at the right hand?
    [Mat 26:64 NKJV] 64 Jesus said to him, "[It is as] you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
    [Mar 14:62 NKJV] 62 Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."
    [Mar 16:19 NKJV] 19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
    [Act 7:55-56 NKJV] 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"
    [Rom 8:34 NKJV] 34 Who [is] he who condemns? [It is] Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
    [Col 3:1 NKJV] 1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
    [Heb 1:3 NKJV] 3 who being the brightness of [His] glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
    [Heb 8:1 NKJV] 1 Now [this is] the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
    [Heb 10:12 NKJV] 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
    [Heb 12:2 NKJV] 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of [our] faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
    [1Pe 3:22 NKJV] 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

    Christ chose submission and the Father exalted Him.
    [Phl 2:5-11 NKJV] 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to [the point of] death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES THE SON "CHANGE HIS MIND" OR DOES JESUS SAY HE WILL STOP DOING THE WILL OF THE FATHER?
    (you accused me of heresy ... and heretics shout!) ;)
     
  11. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Was Christ "more perfect" before He submitted to the Father (John 6:38-40) or after?

    Can God become "more/less" perfect? Can God change?
    You claim it is "RANK HERESY!" to say "No, God does not change."
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    It is very clear that you don't understand the Incarnation of Jesus Christ
     
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Why are you presenting?

    I posted a source that supported what I presented was why I did not consider eternal generation Biblical.

    YOU said it was Biblical.

    Now you say it isn’t biblical.

    Glad you finally get around agreeing with me.
     
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  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    WHERE did I say that "eternal generation" is Biblical? show me
     
  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    would you present supporting evidence, for I did above and it seems to be somewhat different.

    Perhaps the source I posted was wrong in their statements or I miss read.

    lookit over and let me know please.
     
  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    So you don’t think it Biblical, just as I stated that it was not Biblical.

    Teaching on this subject has some variations and variables which one may or may not desire to attend.

    I’ll mention three:
    One is the presentation of the eternal Sonship, and a submissiveness to the Father. I do not find that Biblically supported in the balance of Scriptures.
    Another is the presentation that the Son was conceived by the Spirit in Mary and therefore as (as the Greeks and Roman gods) was both God and man. Some go on to try to separate when God was displayed and when the human was displayed. Foundational to this thinking is the Son is forever subservient to the Father, and this view actually does have some Scripture support in my opinion.
    A third presentation is that who we call the Son was not the Son but the Word. That as the Word of God, at God’s pleasure would appear in human form throughout the OT, Being fully God, the Word took upon the flesh becoming fully human at conception by the trinity as Luke states. From then until the Kingdom is presented to the Father, the Son (because He remains in human form) is subordinate to the Father, yet co-equal.

    I need to add that there are blending and additions folks make to the above three presentations, and even other presentations which for the most part I consider fringes.

    Also, a difference is seen in how one approaches this topic. The western believers have some emphasis areas that the eastern disagree primarily as it relates to whether the Spirit is a person or force. Both groups pray to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    This is why one should accept the doctrine of the trinity, but not try to attempt to example it.
     
    #16 agedman, Jan 20, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What I had presented was from what I understand.

    The Nicene Creed (381 AD).
    "And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    begotten from the Father before all ages, . . ."

    Dr. Walter Martin, in The Kingdom Of The Cults. [1965, 1977, 1985, 1997, 2003] He held the Trinity did not become, Father, Son and Holy Spirit until the incarnation. Note that the Eternal Son is not a Biblical term.

    I disagree with both those views.
    I believe:
    John 1:18 "the unique Son" and He being the LORD who appeared to Abraham, in Genesis 12:7.
     
    #17 37818, Jan 20, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, since the Son was the LORD [YHWH]. The Son being YHWH makes Him eternal as the Son. Proverbs 30:4. Isaiah 9:6.
    Dr Martin believed the concept of the Eternal Son to be unBiblical too.
     
  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    For the record, I have not found (but I’m not infallible) any reference to the “Son” of God in the OT.

    Certainly, (imo) He appears, is present, and spoken by the prophets.

    In the NT he calls himself the “Son of Man” (imo) to emphasize the human identification as both fully God and fully man.

    He is the Word of God all ways was, is and will be the Word.

    When God spoke, the Word created all things. When God spoke, the word carved into stone the commands.
    When God spoke the Word caused the prophets to write exactly what was stated.
    The Word was with God and was God for Elohim is not silent, His word goes forth with the full authority to accomplish all God prescribes.
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    The ecumenical creeds are “pure heresy” but fortunately, we have the elite enlightened few who can lead Christandom into true “orthodoxy”. :Coffee

    [​IMG]
     
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