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Featured Who’s Right … Torture Defenders Or Critics?

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by poncho, Dec 12, 2014.

  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK, that's why I defined "war" in the manner in which I did, that's why I defined the threat of extinction as "real or imagined".

    It would have to be a real threat to the well being of the nation.

    In actuality I can say from experience that MANY real threats are not revealed or leaked to the public (at least in my day).


    HankD
     
  2. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    I would tend to agree with this Hank. The real threats to our republic are rarely discussed openly and if by chance they do get discussed there is always someone who comes along to paint them as something else.

    Or to inject the "dismiss detract deflect" arguments into the mix.

    The problem is how are we to tell the real threats from the hyped ones?

    I say look at all the evidence but today it seems like any evidence contrary to the "official narrative' no matter how well documented = "conspiracy theory" to those still lost in the left vs right matrix.
     
    #62 poncho, Dec 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2014
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Poncho your endless conspiracy theories and pandering to the left are as senseless as this little poncho!
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Melanie

    Melanie Active Member
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    Therefore the concept of pre- emptive strikes?
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    It would seem a definite possibility.

    HankD
     
  6. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    OR you are becoming very predictable these days. It seems that you have but two replies when faced with facts and evidence that refuse to align with the mainstream consensus.

    Brand the person presenting them as a democrat or conspiracy theorist.

    A conspiracy theorist alleges a conspiracy is afoot without any evidence. Such as what Washington, the media and you were peddling about the "Russian invasion" that never was and flight MH17 before the still ongoing investigation ever took place.

    This is the thing. I'm not a democrat. I'm not a republican. I don't have a dog in that fight. I have no party to defend, no political interest to protect like you do.

    I do however have an interest in this nation's well being. It's not about the left vs the right or Bush vs Obama or America vs the latest boogeyman.

    It's about right vs wrong.

    If pointing out unethical and illegal treatment of prisoners in U.S custody is a "conspiracy theory" to you then I have to wonder if you even know what a "conspiracy theory" is.
     
    #66 poncho, Dec 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2014
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I may not know what a conspiracy theory is but I know the most active conspiracy theorist on this BB, lil ole poncho![​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]



    And everyone on this board is well aware of that!
     
  8. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Could be that some people on this board can see I've been making an argument and posting evidence to support it while you've been searching for GIFs and deflecting.

    It is pretty obvious.
    :smilewinkgrin:

    Now, about that torture that isn't torture "water-boarding".

    The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government - whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community - has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.

    After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

    < snip >

    We know that U.S. military tribunals and U.S. judges have examined certain types of water-based interrogation and found that they constituted torture. That's a lesson worth learning. The study of law is, after all, largely the study of history. The law of war is no different. This history should be of value to those who seek to understand what the law is - as well as what it ought to be.

    Evan Jonathan Wallach

    http://www.alternet.org/story/66954/waterboarding_used_to_be_a_crime

    The UN Convention on Torture, which Ronald Reagan signed and championed, is very clear and its definition of what torture is obviously broad and inclusive. There's actually a good discussion of it at Hot Air, which reproduces the legal definition thus:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2009/04/what-reagan-signed/202639/

    Reagan On Torture Prosecutions

    From his signing statement ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984:

    "The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

    The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."

    My italics. Reagan was admant about prosecuting torture, but also prosecuting inhuman treatment that some might claim was not full-on torture. Now go read National Review or The Weekly Standard. And look what has happened to conservatism in America.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2009/04/reagan-on-torture-prosecutions/202700/

    This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlevi

    Do you really think posting a silly GIF is going to "debunk" all this evidence OR?




     
    #68 poncho, Dec 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2014
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I don't know but it sure is fun!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The waterboarding described above is nothing like that used on the terrorists. The mortality rate of American prisoners in Japanese Camps was 27-36%: for Chinese prisoners it was almost 100&. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080414052848AAy2ssa

    Before you flip your lid you should listen to Megan Kelley's interview on Fox with the psychologist who "waterboarded" the terrorists![​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  11. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't matter. It fits the definition of torture. Torture is illegal.

    The law is this law for republicans as well as democrats. Instead of arguing in favor of breaking the law you being a "law and order" coservative should be arguing in favor of enforcing the law.

    Not prosecuting crimes because the criminal is on "our team" will soon lead to a lawless unaccountable government.

    Oh wait. It already has.
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I suppose the definition of torture depends on the mindset of the recipient.
    But I can tell you that "lil ole poncho" here sure is having fun![​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  13. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    A conversation between a judge and little Johnny drug dealer in Old Regular's world.

    Judge to Johnny, "possession and distribution of illegal drugs is a crime".

    Johnny to Judge, "not in my mind your honor".

    Judge to Johnny, "well that's good enough for me case dismissed".


    I think your little buddy here is just trying to distract people so they won't notice how weak your argument is.

    In my "mindset" it's not working.

    The law is the law. Doesn't matter what the "mindset of the recipient" is. I believe a judge would define that defense as "irrelevant".

    What matters is the definition of the crime as written in the law. In this case the definition is quite plain and easy to understand.

    What is the definition as written in the law?

    "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession"

    What if any are the exceptional circumstances?

    No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

    An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

    In other words, there are no exceptions and "I was just following orders" is no defense.


    If you're going to apply your above reasoning "
    the law doesn't apply to republicans because they were doing what they felt was necessary in an exceptional circumstance" then to be consistent you would have to apply the same reasoning to all crimes for all people. Even democrats.

    In a republican form of government the law applies to everyone. Even those who get on TV and say the law doesn't apply to them because they were doing what they felt was necessary in an exceptional circumstance.

    If we allow that "reasoning" to stand then very soon there will be no republican form of government at all. Every circumstance will be considered "exceptional" and there will be only rule by decree.

    And if my memory serves me you are against the democrats ruling by decree every bit as much as I am. The difference between you and I OR is that I hold the republicans to the same standard I hold the democrats.

    The law.


     
    #73 poncho, Dec 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2014
  14. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    But if the goal is possibly saving American lives, then what about torturing American citizens who might know about American lives being in jeopardy?

    < snip >

    Just think about the potential benefits of torture for local law enforcement. Drug users could be tortured until they reveal the names of their dealers. Serial killers could be tortured until they reveal where they buried their dead bodies. Pedophiles could be tortured until they reveal the names of the children they have victimized. Burglars could be tortured until they reveal the addresses they have burglarized. Rapists could be tortured until they reveal the names of all the women they have violated. College students could be tortured until they reveal the names of those who illegally supplied them with booze. Reporters could be tortured until they reveal the names of their sources. Hey, if we torture enough people, we can get a confession for every unsolved crime in the world.

    http://archive.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance172.html
     
  15. Timsings

    Timsings Member
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    I have not visited this site in at least a year, but I thought I would check in and see how the "conversation" on the torture report was going. It is going about like I expected: a few people giving evidence that can be checked on one or both sides and others just screaming that they are right and everyone who disagrees with them is a liberal and therefore wrong. There have been the usual rabbits to chase that have nothing to do with the topic at hand: e. g., abortion and what other countries have done to our soldiers in past wars.

    However, I find it deplorable that the biblical argument on how neighbors and enemies are to be treated has been, for many here, been conveniently ignored. It makes it appear that the Bible is only trotted out when it supports one's argument but packed away if it doesn't.

    Therefore, I am going to ask this question: what is more important to you, your faith in God or your patriotism for the US? Be careful how you answer. Remember another scripture from the Sermon on the Mount: No one can serve two masters . . . Matthew 6.24a.

    For the record, I don't think anyone who calls themself a Christian can justify the use of torture on anyone. I also think that if you are justifying torture for others, then you are legitimizing torture for Americans. I would mention one final point: because my tax dollars support the work of the CIA, that means that I am paying others to perform torture for me. That applies to any taxpayer.

    Tim Reynolds
    Nashville, Tennessee
     
  16. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    Torture of American POWs has been going on for nearly 100 years.

    What we do doesn't matter one bit. The "legitimizing" argument just won't wash. Least of all against our current enemies.
     
  17. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Who we've been funding and arming since 1949.
     
  18. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Good guys do not sadistically torture people. Good guys do not threaten to sexually abuse the family members of their prisoners, and they certainly do not forcibly ram things up the rear ends of those in their custody.

    One of the greatest dangers that our country is facing is the fact that we are not passing on what it means to be “American” to future generations. Once upon a time, Americans were the good guys. But now, instead of fighting the Nazis we are behaving just like them. The details of the Senate torture report that was just released are almost too horrifying to talk about.

    We must talk about them though, because we are losing our soul as a nation. So please be warned – this article is going to be quite graphic. The reason for this is so that we can all take a long, hard, honest look at what we have become. After everything that has happened, top politicians from both political parties are still standing up and defending those that conducted and authorized this torture. The rest of the world is watching this, and the number of people that are absolutely convinced that America is pure evil is growing by the day. By not loudly condemning this torture and bringing the perpetrators to justice, we add fuel to the fire of those that hate this country, and we make it more likely that Americans will be targets of violence all over the planet.

    There are very few people that are more outspoken about the evil of Islamic terrorism than I am. But there is no way that we will ever defeat Islamic terrorists by becoming just like them.

    Read More At: http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/horrific-torture-report-shows-why-much-of-the-world-considers-america-to-be-the-nazis-of-the-21st-century
     
  19. Timsings

    Timsings Member
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