Who decides?

Tom Butler · May 19, 2007

Darron Steele said:

I believe that Christ settled this.

Paul wrote about God the Father at Ephesians 1:5a “having foreordained us unto adoption as |his own children| through Jesus Christ” (ASV|ICB|ASV). All Christians are adopted by God because of Jesus Christ.

In describing Jesus Christ, Hebrews 2:10b-11 says “So God made perfect the One who leads people to salvation. He made Jesus a perfect Savior through Jesus’ suffering. Jesus, who makes people holy, and those who are made holy are from the same family. So he is not ashamed to call them his |brethren” (ICB|ASV).

I do not see any of us as being in a position to reject those whom Christ has accepted.
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No disagreement here. I think we would all agree that the scriptures should settle this question. Having said that, I still maintain that the reality is that ultimately individuals decide. They may decide wrongly. They may let other considerations enter in--particularly cultural, ecclesiological, eschatological and the like. Even ethnic factors may enter in.

So my point, I guess, is not who should decide what is essential. It is that individuals do decide, for better or worse

D28guy · May 19, 2007

Agnus Dei,

"With the thousands of competing Protestant denominations, which is basically a market place of competing fractions; I’ve often wondered what makes the Baptist view of essential doctrines any more or less essential than let’s say the Methodists view."
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You mean like these competing factions in Catholicism?...

"Let’s take a look at the "unity" in the Universal Church of Roman Catholicism. In this morass there are:
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1. born-again Catholics who received Jesus as their Saviour in spite of the definition of salvation by the Roman Catholic magisterium. They entrusted their lives to Jesus and trust in Him alone for salvation. These Catholics share many of our basic beliefs in the Scriptures, the Resurrection, the virgin birth of Jesus and the other basic tenets of the Christian faith.

2. There are Catholics still rebelling against Vatican II who ignore the Tridentine prohibition and attend masses said in Latin, e.g. Bishop LaFebvre.

3. We have some rather "liberal" Roman Catholics such as an active nun who held a public office in my state and espoused abortion as a woman’s right in spite of her Church’s official condemnation of abortion. She is not alone in her views. She represents quite a few challenging the belief system of their Church.

4. There are Liberation theologians and their adherents who preach the gospel with an AK-47. For them it isn’t the truth that will make you free but rather the barrel of a gun. Some such adherents are active clerics in the Jesuits and the Maryknoll order. Some assisted the Ortegas in taking over Nicaragua and a couple are even in the Sandanista government as officials. This movement has been warned severely by the present pope several times - to no avail. Maybe he didn’t do it “ex cathedra”.

5. There are very conservative Catholics such as IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (The battle cry of Constantine - In this sign, conquer). These people are on the internet and don’t waste time talking to us as “separated” brethren. They just tell us we are heretics on our way to hell because of their man-made doctrine Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus - Outside the Church (The Roman Catholic Church), there is no salvation. This great doctrine was handed down from the Council of Trent and has never been officially denied or renounced since Vatican II. The IHSV people can barely tolerate this present pope whom they see as leading them into a disastrous ecumenism. (I might agree with that last point myself).

6. In the Keys of this Blood by Malachi Martin (investigative journalist, ex-Jesuit theologian who contributed greatly to Vatican II and a personal confidante of Pope John Paul II), Martin writes regarding the serious concerns that this present pope has about the future of the Roman Catholic Church and the condition of a majority of his bishops who no longer accept as true doctrine the physical Resurrection of Jesus, the infallibility of the Holy Scriptures, the virgin birth of Jesus and the divinity of Jesus. Many of these men hold the views of Hans Kung, a renegade theologian in the Roman Church who actively teaches against these basic beliefs of Christianity.

7. Although I have read how the Roman Catholic Church bitterly denounced William Tyndale as a heretic and murdered him for translating the Bible into the language of the common people, I have never seen a pope excommunicate a member of the Mafia. Nor have I seen the Church of Rome reprimand a well-known psychic whose occult prophecies are reported annually in the yellow journals that populate our food stores. She is a daily communicant of the eucharist in her local parish.
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Universal Church??? I don’t think so. I think this is an institution in search of a meaning.

These articles are all written by Roman Catholics

Ecumenism & the United Communities of Spirit Article on Christianity Compromising everything for the sake of unity by The Rev. Thomas A. Baima, S.T.L. Catholic Priest, Director of the Office for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs of the Archdiocese of Chicago, and Trustee of The Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions

<H3>"True Roman Catholics" and their writings
[COLOR=navy][B]<H3>[B]101 Heresies of Anti-Pope John Paul II[/B][/B][/COLOR]
[B][URL="http://www.truecatholic.org/baltcont.htm"][COLOR=navy]

[B][B][B][B]Baltimore Catechism of 1941 - True Catholic Catechism[/B][/B][/B][/B][/COLOR][/URL][B][B][COLOR=navy]
[/COLOR][B][B][B][URL="http://www.truecatholic.org/v2heresies.htm"][COLOR=navy][B]<H3>[B]Heresies of Vatican II[/B][/B][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=navy]
[/COLOR][COLOR=navy][URL="http://www.truecatholic.org/brokencross.htm"]

[B][URL="http://sspxasia.com/Documents/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X/OpenLetterToCatholics/"][SIZE=4][COLOR=navy]An Open Letter to Catholics[/COLOR][/SIZE][/URL][COLOR=blue] Letter and articles from Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=blue]

[B][COLOR=navy][URL="http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/liberati.htm"][SIZE=4][COLOR=navy][U]The Catholic Origin[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE][/URL][SIZE=4] of Liberation Theology [/SIZE][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=navy]
[B][URL="http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/1777/libtheo.htm"][SIZE=4][COLOR=navy][U]Catholic Liberation Theology[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE][/URL][/B][COLOR=blue]
[B]In the United States, Maryknoll militancy is manifested in their media productions, including films glorifying the Sandinista regime in Nicaragua, and books published by Maryknoll’s Orbis Books. Liberation Theology - preaching the gospel through the barrel of a gun[/B]

[B][COLOR=navy][URL="http://www.cath4choice.org/"][SIZE=4][COLOR=navy][U]Roman Catholic Supporters of Abortion Rights[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE][/URL][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=navy]

[B][URL="http://geocities.com/orthopapism/ortho/index.html"][SIZE=4][COLOR=navy][U]Catholics opposing the "Anti-Church" of Vatican II[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE][/URL][/B]
[B][COLOR=blue]With the Great Schism engineered by the Roman Modernist wing of Liberal Protestant heretics, under the auspices of Angelus Joseph Roncalli, there gradually arose various groups in opposition and to defend, preserve and ensure the perpetuation of the True Church. These groups together comprise the Catholic Resistance. The Resistance can be grouped into n broad schools of thought - Cassicanists, Sede-Vacantists, Orthopapists; excluding those who strayed into heresy or who compromised with the Roncallite Antichurch.[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=blue]

[B][URL="http://www.rcf.org/"][SIZE=4][COLOR=navy][U]The Roman Catholic Faithful[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE][/URL][/B][COLOR=navy]
[B][COLOR=blue][B]Lay Catholics attempting to rid themselves of perverse and homosexual clergy[/B]

[B][URL="http://www.crc-internet.org/"][SIZE=4][COLOR=navy][U]The Catholic Counter-Reformation[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE][/URL][COLOR=navy][COLOR=blue][B] of the 20th Century speaks out against apostasy in their Catholic Church[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/URL][B][COLOR=blue][COLOR=navy][COLOR=blue][COLOR=navy][COLOR=blue]
[URL="http://acts1711.com/rebuke.htm"][SIZE=4][COLOR=navy][U]Papal Rebuke by alleged "Queen of Heaven"[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE][/URL]. "[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/B][/B][/B][/B][/B][/B]
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[B][B][B][B][B][COLOR=navy][B][COLOR=blue][COLOR=navy][COLOR=blue][COLOR=navy][COLOR=blue]

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[B][URL]http://www.acts1711.com/cathsplint.htm[/URL][/B]

[B]Mike[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/B][/B][/B][/B][/B]

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D28guy · May 19, 2007

Agnus Die,

""With the thousands of competing Protestant denominations, which is basically a market place of competing fractions; I’ve often wondered what makes the Baptist view of essential doctrines any more or less essential than let’s say the Methodists view.""
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The scriptural answer is that we are all...all denominations and all individual believers...expected to be students of the scriptures. We are all to turn to the ONE unchanging standard of truth...Gods scriptures, and the scriptures ALONE, with only the Holy Spirit as our guide. We are to utterly REJECT any group, such as the Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, and Catholics, who claim to have a "Truth Gestapo" that decide what the truth is and expect their people to be force fed that truth.

In the true Christian world, when we have disagreements we are to "let our brother be fully convinced" of their beliefs, as we are of ours. We are to discuss and debate, for "iron sharpens iron". Its a very healthy thing. And we are to love our brothers and sisters in spite of our varying convictions.

God bless,

Mike

BobRyan · May 20, 2007

Ok -

Two test cases.

#1. For those whose churches practice "open communion" - a Budhist or Muslim or Hindu comes to your church during a communion and politely asks to participate in this "cultural event".

Do you let him/her?

#2. A close friend on their death bed asks to be annointed by the elder/priest in your church - but they remain atheist, agnostic, Hindu, JW, Orthodox Jew, Catholic, evolutionist etc

do you go along with it?

D28guy · May 20, 2007

Bob,

"#1. For those whose churches practice "open communion" - a Budhist or Muslim or Hindu comes to your church during a communion and politely asks to participate in this "cultural event".

Do you let him/her?"
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At every fellowship I have ever been a part of it is made clear every time we have the Lords Supper memorial that this is a completly "open communion" with the only reguirment being that you are a christian.

"#2. A close friend on their death bed asks to be annointed by the elder/priest in your church - but they remain atheist, agnostic, Hindu, JW, Orthodox Jew, Catholic, evolutionist etc

do you go along with it?
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Annointed for what reason?

If its because they are seeking a divine miraculous healing I would say yes, of course.

If they are seeking an annointing to get them into heaven they should go, but only to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with them and share that it is their only hope for salvation.

God bless,

Mike

Agnus_Dei · May 20, 2007

BobRyan said:

Two test cases.

#1. For those whose churches practice "open communion" - a Budhist or Muslim or Hindu comes to your church during a communion and politely asks to participate in this "cultural event".

Do you let him/her?
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A Methodist would let anyone participate in Communion, which I strongly disagree with. I don’t even let my 6 year-old participate. So I think you know what my answer would be.

BobRyan said:

#2. A close friend on their death bed asks to be annointed by the elder/priest in your church - but they remain atheist, agnostic, Hindu, JW, Orthodox Jew, Catholic, evolutionist etc

do you go along with it?
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I’m of the understanding that God is not bound by the Sacraments He gave to His Church in regards to Baptism and Salvation. Case in point, the thief on the Cross. If an atheist, agnostic, Hindu, JW or Jew sincerely seeks God at their time of death, then I’d anoint them (even though I’m not sure what the Churches position is on this matter), and at that point it’s between God and the person dieing.

For the Catholic, there is the sacrament of anointing the sick.

And I’m not sure what ‘evolutionists’ has to do with anything.
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