Who died on the Cross?

I have comments on 3 things you say here:
1. Christ was not just a soul with a body, nor are we. Our bodies will be transformed and resurrected, so though they are mortal, they will be transformed. Also, Jesus was fully man, not just God with a body.

2. The part about descending into paradise is hotly contested within the church. I personally do not agree with this. The passage you are thinking of (in 2 Peter) uses the word "proclamation," not the word for preaching the gospel. So those who do think he did this often say he declared his victory in Paradise but did not preach the gospel. Another interpretation of this is that when Noah preached, it was with the Spirit of Christ, i.e., the HS.

3. There is no scriptural support that Jesus took anything from Satan, much less keys. Satan never had keys to anything. This is a Word Faith teaching and it's a false one.

 

1Pet.3:18-20 "spirits in prison"
"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water)";
Similar is ch. 4:3-6 —"For the time of life which is past is enough for us to have worked out the will of the nations, having gone on in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, parties, carousings, and abominable idolatries. In these things they are surprised, that you are not running with them into the same excess of riot, blaspheming. But they shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For to this end the gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit." Many in the past have combined this with Christ's burial, and have posited a whole scenario of Christ "descending into Hell", which must have had two sections, "paradise" for the righteous, and a place of suffering for the wicked; and that Christ preached to its inhabitants, and even bringing the righteous (such as Noah) back up with him, to Heaven. Some parts of this are now rejected by various interpreters, but still these passages do appear as "proofs" that the righteous dead before Christ were alive in Sheol/Hades, and now they are alive in "Heaven". Others see the reference to Noah as referring to fallen angels, who existed back then as well as now. But fallen angels are not "sometimes" disobedient, and the other angels are never disobedient. It is useless to "preach" to either. In the context, above we see Paul is discussing unsaved people now (in his time, and of course it applies to our time as well), who taunt Christians for not living like them anymore. It was this same type of people in the "world" in Noah's time, who mocked as he built his ark to escape the coming judgment, and all soon perished. It was not those people in Noah's time who were being preached to by Christ, (unless you see Christ preaching to them through Noah) but just a comparison of the wickedness. The point is, Christ's message is being offered to these people in the world today, enslaved in the prison of sin and condemnation. This passage even seems to be a reference to (fulfilment of) the messianic prophecy in Isaiah 42:1-7 "Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect, in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit on Him; He shall bring out judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not fail nor be discouraged until He has set judgment in the earth; and the coasts shall wait for His law. So says God, the LORD He who created the heavens and stretched them out, spreading out the earth and its offspring; He who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it. I the LORD have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand, and will keep You, and give You for a covenant of the people, for a Light to the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, those who sit in darkness out of the prison house".
This is even recognized in chain references. Sin is many times over referenced as both "prison" and "death". Hanegraaf, in Christianity in Crisis, Harvest House, 1993 p. 396, uses this passage as a proof text of Christ descending to Hades to preach to the righteous in "paradise", but then his own Christian Research Journal (12-97 p.24,25) Luke Wilson, answering Mormon doctrine of the salvation of the dead (a logical possibility with common interpretation of the passage) shatters the idea. The passage suggests this happened after Christ was put to death, and then made alive. And he ultimately shows from the Greek that this passage is describing Christ's [SIZE=-1]PROCLAMATION[/SIZE] of victory which "took place in the context of this journey". (though he takes the view that it was to fallen angels; though after the resurrection). In the notes he adds :"I do not believe 1 Pet.3:18 ff can properly be understood in connection with the doctrine of Christ's descent into Hades during the time His body lay in the tomb".

 

The answer is both.

Jesus is God incarnate. All your threads seem to dance around the issue that you dont believe Jesus is God.

God obviously can not die, however He became lower then the angles and became flesh. When he became flesh he took on atributes of flesh. He feels pain, bleeds, and dies. The part (I know that is not a good way to put it) of God that took on flesh died for three days. His flesh died. Just like us when we die our spirits live on. He was reserected in the flesh after three days and lives in heaven on the right hand side of Himself. The part (again I know) of Himself that is spirit and we call the Father.

 

Eric, you have cut and pasted together passages that don't relate at all. Passages in the OT about being in prison do not have to do with the 1 Pet passage, but with setting people free through God's redemption. The Bible should be read in context.

Also, the phrase "the gospel was preached to the dead" refers to those who have died, not that the gospel was actually preached to the dead.

No

The note from the NET Bible on "now dead" is

The same statement is made in other Bibles I have.

 

Note on 1 Pet 3.18-20

This gives the 2 main views I mentioned before, including the 2nd one, which is the one I believe. This needs to be read in context of Peter trying to encourage the believers who were being persecuted.

 

I think I showed there, that those OT passages were what Peter was drawing upon regarding "spirits in prison", and his ultimate point was setting people free through redemption, rather than him actually preaching to fallen angels in tartaros, or wherever. (Your theory I also allowed for in there).

 

Bob,

You don't believe that Jesus is God, do you?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Does your second one have a typo? Should that read, "who lived in the days of Noah" or should it read, "who lived since the days of Noah?"

I thought the concept was Christ spirit went into the remains of Noah and preached to those in Hell.

Either way, we know the Spirit of Christ preached (says Peter) and the message was heard in hell. Can we agree to that?

 

We are all bodies with souls, and though we may have glorified bodies when Christ returns and the world ends. But until that time if your great aunt fanny dies her body rots in the ground and provides food for worms. In the mean time her soul is in heaven, thus seperated from her physical and mortal self. So what you say may be accurate, but only if time has come to an end. In the mean time, it works the way I said it. Now, for Christ to be fully man AND fully God he had to have divine nature. But we also know that he has always existed, much like God. Therefore his divine nature could not be in his body or mortal self, due to the fact that his body was born and aged and bleed like ours. Therefore his divinity had to exist as his soul, there is (to put it rather straight forward) no where else to put it.
1 Corinthians 15:44

Also consider what the phrase "fully man" means. All of us exist with dual natures, which paul talkes about EXTENSIVELY in Romans. We have a will to do good and a will to do evil, with the duality of the two causing us to inherit the "human condition", which in itself is rather a paradox.
ROMANS 7:21-24

The imagery of the Body of Death is a strong one. This was the name for a type of torture and execution that the romans used, in that a dead body was strapped to you and as it decomposed it poisoned you with toxins until you succame to death. Thus, the sin nature that we inherit works in much the same way, poisoning us as we try to do good.

Frankly, I dont give a hoot who contests what. Regardless of general opinion I am a seeker of truth, not of opinion. In Luke 16:19–31 Christ HIMSELF speakes of Hades and of the Bosom of Abraham where the faithfull wait until their sins can be forgiven. Now read this closely please, I am going to try to pack a afternoons conversation of theology into a few short points.
1) There no salvation through the law, only condemnation. For more on this, read Hebrews.
2) The purpose of sacrifice in the OT was essentially a band-aid for sin. the wages of sin is death, and innocent blood must be paid to help cover the sin, which is the prupose of killing an innocent animal for things that you have done wrong. It had to be undertood that blood was the payment for sin and that an innocent must die for your actions. Though they did not realize it, God was preparing the Jews for the true salvation through blood and innocent death that Christ would provide.
3) If Christ had not yet died, and in doing so facilitated forgivness of sin, what then did the righteous do? No need to wonder, as Christ spells out in John 16 they waited in tarturus but essentially in what the greeks would call elysium, a place for righteous people that was seperated from the rest of hell. This had to happen, because without a forgiveness of sins these people were still guilty and deserved to be judged. But as Paul spells out in Romans, God withheld his judgment until his covenant could be fulfilled.
4) Thus being the case, when Christ tells the thief on the the cross "Truly I say that you will be with me today in paradise" what was he talking about? Heaven? So Christ died and then went to heaven? I dont think so. He desceneded into hell because at the time of his death he was the most sinful man on earth. Why? because he took on upon himself ALL of the sins of the world, for all time past and present, and he paid the penalty for them. God forsook Christ on the cross for this reason, promting the most aganizing aspect of Christs entire ordeal. His seperation from God, prompting his cry of "father, father. Why have you forsaken me?
5) So, in the end (as tends to happen within the Christian faith) the splitting hairs over what Christ did in paradise is pointless. What matters is that those who were
"justified in faith" recieved the promise that God had made them and were able to gain salvation. But I will say this. Salvation for us is a gift that must be accepted, it cannot be proclaimed at us. Why would it be any different for those awaiting Christ?

I said this in a rhetorical way, I was not quoting scripture. Those awaiting Christs death in paradise WERE captives to Sin, and satan has been given power over those who sin. Therefore by overcoming Sin, Christ set free not only the living who were captive to sin, but also the righteous dead. There is obviously not an actual big golden key that Christ went and swiped from the devil. And I take offense to being thrown in with the word of faith crowd.

 

Actually, what I was saying is that when Noah preached about the coming Flood, he was preaching by the Spirit of Christ. This is what my pastor believes (I agree but not just because he said it). The reference to the days of Noah when people were eating and drinking but ignoring God and Noah's message is what clinches it for me.

I don't agree with the 2nd view that Christ proclaimed his victory in hell. This is a popularly held view, though. This is one of those passages that are worded in such a way that it seems impossible to really know for sure what it means. I always think that when this happens, God does this for a reason.

 

The way you said it? What do you mean?

I think you are making a division not allowed in scripture regarding the nature of Christ, saying that his body was mortal and his soul was divine. This is a Gnostic view. In order to be fully human, he had to be human beyond just his body.

I think this passage is talking about the unsaved Jew struggling to obey the law. I realize many believe it refers to believers, but even if it does, it does not mean we have dual natures. We have a fallen nature, but once saved, are no longer slaves to sin. This does not mean we do not sin, but we do have the HS within us. I am not sure I would agree with the phrase "dual natures." We are either slaves to sin (unsaved) or slaves to God (saved). Paul even says that once saved, we are no longer slaves to sin.

Well, I guess I could say, "goody for you." I try to learn from others as well and from those who have studied the Bible. I don't take what they say just because they say it, but I consider it. We can't learn all by ourselves.

They wait until their sins are forgiven? This is NOT in the passage. The beggar is saved. Some believe that the "bosom of Abraham" is a euphimism for God.

The blood of animals never took away sin. It was only their faith that counted. That's in Hebrews, too.

Jesus did not have to suffer in hell. Is that what you are saying? Jesus was never "the most sinful man on earth" either. Our sins were put on him, but he was not sinful. Do you really believe Jesus was sinful?

Well, I'm glad you are not word faith, but don't blame me for guessing that because some of what you said is what I've heard them say. No one in paradise was captive to sin; they were saved people. Some believe that they went to heaven after Jesus' ascension, but they were not suffering in Paradise.

 

I read your post. Thanks, Eric! :wavey:

 

True, I look forward to the day we can just ask Peter. I also agreee Noah preached in the spirit of Christ and believe the Ark was the ark of Salvation. You can't expect a non-trades man to get the first model right so that thing had to float somehow??? :laugh:

As for Peter, this verse is all the more substaniated by Mt 27 where they were seen walking around. These were the souls who died in hope of the Messiah. Even though they had hope, they must still receive and believe the Gospel to be saved. So Peter keeps us from wondering how they were saved by saying there was preaching and this preaching was heard where ever these lost souls were.

Only 8 people were saved as a result of Noah preaching and I believe even they had to accept the Gospel for final salvation...

 

:laugh:

Are you saying that the OT saints had to hear the gospel after death before being saved? I have to strongly disagree. I think OT saints were saved by faith in God. They were told that God was the Redeemer. Believing that is what saved them. I guess this topic is really another topic. :smilewinkgrin: We've actually had several threads on this topic, usually up in the Baptist forums ("How were OT saints saved?").

 

So now I know our difference. I will have to give this thought.