Who does God Love?!

Hello webdog.

I was here for some of that you have not answered my point: Are you a linguist and a bible translator? Are you saying the translators of all the translations have erred and hated should read 'loved less'? By what authority do you presume to teach contrary to scripture? Jacob I loved Esau I hated. Answer the point please. What authority have you please? Show me a translation with loved less instead of hate in. You can't so don't tell me I twist scripture. You have it in black and white God says He hates Esau and you say He doesn't it is as simple as that. I will not add to that as calvinist do. No you detract.

Your use of words shows a lack of concern over their meanings. God says He hates and you say He doesn't. God says He made sure Pharoah refused His command and you say He did not. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. Show me where there is a hint of love in the verse above please.

Mark 9:48.
'where their worm doesn't die, and the fire is not quenched.' (WEB)
where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (ASV)
Where their worm is ever living and the fire is not put out. (BBE)
where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. (DBY)
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (KJV)
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (WBS)
where their worm does not die and the fire does not go out. (WEY)
where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched; (YLT)
where " `their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' (NIV)

The Almighty has failed in love then has He not? Love protects and does no harm. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. He behaves like this in love is it? Some love.

You believe God hates no one explain to me where God's love is in the verses above please. Rev 20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. In love of course.

RO 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." Is this the way love behaves to the objects of it's love? Answer this please. Since Israel earnestly sought the Kingdom of God why did God not give them a lift up but instead He gave them a spirit of stupor? Is this the way love behaves?
1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails...
Love is kind and in love God gave them a spirit of stupor.
Love always protects and in this love God gave them a spirit of stupor. Some love man. "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." So they could not understand He blinded them and the spirit they received is not the Spirit we have but in love.

What you think?

john.

 

Good point "Be ye perfect AS your FATHER In HEAVEN is perfect" in showing "LOVE" EVEN to your enemy -- Matt 5 -- For "We have been given the mind of Christ" 1Cor 2 - Christ IS God and "God IS Love" 1John 4

He who says He KNOWS Christ should also WALK as CHRIST WALKED! If someone says they know Christ - but they do not walk like Him - they are lying. 1John 2

So I guess that means you are not willing to "Downsize the Gospel"?? Not willing to "calvinize the text" so that it is just so much "marketeering" on behalf of a deity that in fact "hates from before the foundation of the world"??

You stand on the Word of God -- instead? Well then I say "amen"!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:Webdog said
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I do believe God hates no one. Why? "God so loved the WORLD", the Bible says it, not me.
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Indeed "immortal worms" would not be very loving would it? What are those immortal worms eating?? Decaying matter? Oh!! How unloving!

How about fire that can not be stopped??!! That is surely unloving. Much better to have fire that is easily put out.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Interesting that Romans 11 is supposed to support the Calvinist idea of the "God that does not care" -- "God that is fickle and hates from all eternity".

Lets "see the details".

Paul is looking to "MOTIVATE" the lost - he does not conclude that God will irresistible force them to be saved.
Instead of using God's power to alter the will as the "means" to save them, God uses the appeal to CHOICE,
imperfect "motives" - the APPEAL is made and the hope is that some will take it.

Rom 11:17-23 - WE are grafted in to the place from which some of those who rebelled fell (as we note in Romans 11). WE are in the same place as THEY - under the ONE Gospel. (Gal 1:6)

Romans 11 points out that we are grafted into the SAME place from which the Jews fell AND that God wants to put the Jews BACK into the place from which they fell.
Not only is this a denial of OSAS it is also a denial that once you fall you can not be re-instated.

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.

God desires to RE-establish them WITH US in that FORMER position IN the body of Christ. (Every branch In Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire – John 15). Yet here we see that God is able to “graft them in again” – so they can come back IF They do not Continue in unbelief.

And yet all this does not REJECT the plan of salvation as it continually unfolds in the NT - in fact it explicitly relies upon it. Including the future events of the coming
Messiah as described in Isaiah 53. But they ALL benefit from the God who "gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does NOT exist" Rom 4:17 so that God
called Abraham the Father of many nations - while as yet he had no children.

The Cross of Christ - benefits of forgiveness already applied PRE cross.

Rom 11
24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are
the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position.

Yet God shows His CONTINUED willingness, purpose, intent and interest in "Grafting them in again". He never presents the fall of Israel as "God's fickle choice for the CHOSEN" -- rather it is "Their UNBELIEF" - the rebellion of the CHOSEN.

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JohnP uses Rom 11 to show God as unloving, partial, fickle and "hating from eternity past" in God's treatment of HIS CHOSEN people Israel --

But this the VERY Text that shows the attempt to SAVE and RESCUE any who will reconsider and accept EVEN if the motive is initially "jealousy".

Paul is looking to "MOTIVATE" the lost - he does not conclude that God will irresistible force them to be saved.
Instead of using God's power to alter the will as the "means" to save them, God uses the appeal to CHOICE,
imperfect "motives" - the APPEAL is made and the hope is that some will take it.

How "Arminian" then.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Your questions are interesting but they do not answer the questions given above.

When God saw humanity - and then "SO LOVED that HE GAVE" (even if that "seeing" was seeing the future) - it is not a SAVED humanity that He sees and then chooses to "SO LOVE that He GAVE.." neither is it a group of "Some who believe and some who do not believe"...

RAther - as Romans 5 points out ALL sin ALL fall ALL are doomed to death. It is THAT world of sinful fallen totally depraved humans that God SEES and then "SO LOVES that He chooses to GIVE..."

And that "is the problem" in Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

it's going to be one of those nights i see

john.

 

hello Bob.
if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them

i do the same for you
i tell you the freedom from fear and the everlasting love that will never forsake me and you consider me a fool

john.

 

The Arminian answer is always that "God FOREKNEW ALL" so there is no problem there once we see God foreknowing IN THE CONTEXT of the ALL encompassing -- unlimited Gospel and unlimited atoning sacrifice.

(from an Arminian POV).

More devastatingly the text of John 3 does NOT say "God so loved THE ELECT that HE GAVE.." as IF there was the ELECT before God chose to LOVE and to GIVE!!

Hence the devastating problem for Calvinism and hence the need in a Calvinist model to use circular reasoning on this point.

Hmm so that would be "God so LOVING THE WORLD" that HE GAVE - and the WORLD would be a WORLD of fallen sinful depraved humanity.

An interesting "Bible matching" sequence.

That group of Calvinists imagines God selecting out A treasured bride that is SELECTED OUT OF the group of perfect sinless - holy happy unfallen humanity??

Really!!!

Somehow I find that reasoning -- vaccuous.

Why does that group of Calvinists imagine God selecting a subgroup OUT OF the larger group of unfallen, sinless, holy happy humanity?

I see.

So having imagined God selecting a subgroup of pefect, happy sinless unfallen humans out of the LARGER group of sinless holy, unfallen humans - God THEN decrees that BOTH groups should fall and be sinful, depraved, wicked and unbelieving humans!

Yet even in this rather far flung dubious fictional and imaginative scenario on the part of that group of Calvinists God STILL did not SELECT out a group of "BELIEVERS" for in His selecting He has not yet decreed that ANY should be fallen or that ANY should be "believers in the GOSPEL" for a fallen race!!

The gushing leaks in that Calvinist model are too many to count!!

In fact that imaginative Calvinist scenario does nothing to address the very real historic issue of MAtt 10 that takes place AFTER the fall of mankind.

Christ gives the disciples the command to stay within the confines of Israel and then sends them to Samaria just 2 years later in Acts 1.

(Christ Himself ministers to the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4 preaching the Gospel to her and all in her town )

NONE of these scenarios shows Christ SELECTING out from among a PERFECT, holy sinless unfallen group - a SUB GROUP to be His bride!!

The KEY foundation point of the Calvinist speculation given in your scenario is entirely absent from scripture!

True but in that parable the lost sheep is the ONE LOST PLANET -- the WORLD - the World that "God so LOVED".

The WORLD that Satan comes from in Job 1. When God asks WHERE Satan comes from - he says from walking up and down the earth!

The WORLD that Satan offers to give BACK to Christ in MAtt 4.

The WORLD that Paul claims that Satan has some dominion over in 2Cor 4:4 "The god of THIS world has blinded their eyeas"

The WORLD for which Christ provides the atoning sacrifice "Not for OUR SINS only but for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD"

We ARE the one lost sheep in all of God's creation!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Cute - but it dodges the point.

God is SHOWN in Romans 11 to CONTINUE to care about Israel and the PROBLEM is SHOWN in Romans 11 to be THEIR unbelief - NOT God's fickel choice to "hate the chosen nation from eternity past"

(You "know" what comes next)

The point remains!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

God works through cause and effect so we believe. Sometimes He pulls fish sandwhiches out of the air but normally He works through cause and effect. There are proceedures to follow and they follow Arminian lines though we know the fact that it is God's work.

But you know that don't you?

My freedom is absolute no charge can be brought against me ever and if anyone tries to charge me with a crime I'll get my Big Brother to show the Judge His Hands for there is my name written.

ISA 63:17 Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.

This is my prayer for the Church may we all pray it.

john.

 

Is it your view that if you pray that prayer - God will stop doing what it says He is doing to you?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I am still wanting to see these questions answered specifically in regard to John 3:16 "God so LOVED the WORLD that He GAVE..."

 

Hello Bob.

No ones perfect. It's a good prayer for the Church I said and as part of the Church I take my part of the goodness that God pours out on His people when they pray within His will and as the prayer is from the bible I would wager that He will fulfill such a request.

john.

 

But isn't it your point in quoting Isaiah 63 that God is actually hardening your heart and making you wander away from Him?

Isn't that what He does to those He does NOT care for in the Calvinist model? (You know - like Pharaoh?)

Does your prayer to Him make Him "care" for you? Does it change His behavior towards you? Will He "respond" to you by no longer hardening your heart against Him?

If your heart is being hardened by God against Him - how is it that you are praying to him to stop?

(In the Calvinist context that is)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

Of course and that is a fact but when I am taken to a scripture it might be for more than one reason and when you read it it is because He wants you to read it. His word is active to harden and soften and to comfort His Bride and to teach Her.

No He does it to the Church as well but He is the Father and He will not abandon us but for a time we can prodigal away like mad. He says "Ask and it will be given you." I have asked.
ISA 63:17 Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance. Is a good prayer because we are praying for a thing that God wants us to pray for for the ones He died for, His Pearl of great price, or as we say, us. Paul spent himself for the faith of God's elect. Tit 1:1.

Yes. Because the time has come for me to move towards Him He will insure I do because everything that happens to me is directed to happen to me for my benefit regardless of the situation. If I ask for bread He will not give me a stone.

Does a babies cry cause the parents to care for the child? In a way the child gets what it needs at the time. Before it cried it was cared for but after it cried it was cared for in another way. But any prayer worth it's salt is inspired by God and spoken to God by God without our intervention: RO 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. We can't lose man. Our prayers are spoken to God by God and God knows what's going on. Which is pretty handy really cause I don't.

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him. 1 John 5:4.
You see that Bob? I can actually pray in God's will and I believe He hears me and so I get what I want because I know God has put it into my mind and will do as I ask because He put it there for me to ask. That's all. That was 1 John 5:14-15 by the way.

And how else if one may ask? Moses was left kicking his heels for forty years. The five vigins were having a kip and the Prodigal son was off with pig food for afters. We are what we are because God causes us to be as we are. Hitler was raised up by God to devastate possibly billions of human lives. I would say you believe He did no such thing so you are just as well off as me because God, the Good Samaritan, the One that so loved the world, that world He turned His Back on and allowed His creatures to run amok. Some Sovereign. Some love.
DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: "What have you done?"

john.

 

Bob.

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him. 1 John 5:4.
You see that Bob? I can actually pray in God's will and I believe He hears me and so I get what I want.


1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Now apply the scriptures: This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him. 1 John 5:4.

Now you know God's will, if it is God's will, you can ask in confidence for a universal salvation and be assured of all men being saved.

john.

 

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But isn't it your point in quoting Isaiah 63 that God is actually hardening your heart and making you wander away from Him?
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Ok so your interpretation for Isaiah 63 is that like God hardened pharaoh's heart - He is also hardening your own heart and in fact is leading you AWAY from Him.

How is it than you are "able" to overcome not only your OWN sinful nature and inclination to harden your OWN heart - but also GOD's divine power in hardening your heart and leading you away from Him -- so that you can pray that He will stop?

Isn't that kind of activity on God's part the VERY thing you claim He is doing to those "He does not care for"??? Those he "hates from the foundations of the world"?? You have claimed that for yourself - so how then are you overcoming all that hate? All that hardening? All that "leading away from God"??

What is in your Calvinist model to suggest that those whom God chooses to harden, to lead away - are able to overcome that and pray to God - choose God "anyway"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

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Isn't that what He does to those He does NOT care for in the Calvinist model? (You know - like Pharaoh?)
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Your use of Isaiah 63 does not claim that "WE are prodigaling and hardening OUR own hearts" you claim GOD is choosing to harden US -

So then you are saying that "God will for a time prodigal us away" just like all the others He does not care for -- hardening our hearts and leading us AWAY from Himself.

Do you claim He is still doing that to you?

In Christ,

Bob

 

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Does your prayer to Him make Him "care" for you? Does it change His behavior towards you? Will He "respond" to you by no longer hardening your heart against Him?
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How is it you are "able" to ask -- while you claim He is "hardening your heart" and "leading you away from Him"??

What part of CAlvinism is that??

In Christ,

Bob