Who does God Love?!

Hello Bob.
ISA 63:17 Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.
Who is it that makes Israel wander away?
Who is it that hardens their hearts.
Who is it that causes men to not revere Him?

RO 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
We have the Holy Spirit.

john.

 

Hello Bob.

ISA 63:17 Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.
I am claiming nothing the scriptures speak for themselves. God Himself claims control of man's heart and even you are saying just what the Lord determined you should say. You do not believe the scriptures because of God not you. Only God can open eyes that He has closed. Have you prayed the prayer?

john.

 

quote:
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How is it you are "able" to ask -- while you claim He is "hardening your heart" and "leading you away from Him"??

What part of CAlvinism is that??--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So it is your claim that those WHOM God HARDENS - those whom He LEADS AWAY from HIM are those whom The Holy Spirit SPEAKS through in prayer to God - appealing to God to stop doing that!?

The ones HE CHOOSES to HARDEN then are the very ones you claim He shows mercy to - the very ones He SAVES!!??

John - you have not been very forthcoming on this point before.

It is interesting to see you promoting it now.

In Christ,

Bob

 

But now that you ARE claiming that those He HARDENS and LEADS away from Himself are those He saves -- lets see how you do with Romans 9.

 

Hello Bob.

ISA 63:17 Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.
Who is it that makes Israel wander away?
Who is it that hardens their hearts.
Who is it that causes men to not revere Him?

Time for an answer from you. Three simple questions. Answers please.

I am claiming nothing the scripture speaks.
ISA 63:17 Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.

john.

 

How is it you are "able" to ask -- while you claim He is "hardening your heart" and "leading you away from Him"??

What part of CAlvinism is that??

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]

 

Your use of Isaiah 63 does not claim that "WE are prodigaling and hardening OUR own hearts" you claim GOD is choosing to harden US -

So then you are saying that "God will for a time prodigal us away" just like all the others He does not care for -- hardening our hearts and leading us AWAY from Himself.

Do you claim He is still doing that to you?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]

 

Ok so your interpretation for Isaiah 63 is that like God hardened pharaoh's heart - He is also hardening your own heart and in fact is leading you AWAY from Him.

How is it than you are "able" to overcome not only your OWN sinful nature and inclination to harden your OWN heart - but also GOD's divine power in hardening your heart and leading you away from Him -- so that you can pray that He will stop?

Isn't that kind of activity on God's part the VERY thing you claim He is doing to those "He does not care for"??? Those he "hates from the foundations of the world"?? You have claimed that for yourself - so how then are you overcoming all that hate? All that hardening? All that "leading away from God"??

What is in your Calvinist model to suggest that those whom God chooses to harden, to lead away - are able to overcome that and pray to God - choose God "anyway"??

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]

 

finished?

john.

 

There is a stack-o-questions re-posted - waiting for JohnP to "stop ducking".

Maybe he will just "snippet" a line from them and keeping ignoring the difficult questions on this topic.

What do you think he will do?

 

Hello Bob.

There probably is and I have always tried to answer your questions as simply as I can and just yesterday I think it was you that thanked me and rc profusly for the large number of quotes you have been given. It seems odd to me that I must attempt to extract the same from you. Why?
I am not ducking your questions I have stated that I am not reading them. I cannot use any concentration for the moment to go chasing red herrings as I have you on the end of my hook.

Now be so kind as to answer the four questions below but you cannot.

ISA 63:17 Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.
Who is it that makes Israel wander away?
Who is it that hardens their hearts.
Who is it that causes men to not revere Him?
...But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Who hardened Pharaoh's heart Bob please.

john.

 

If I answer your questions, will you read Bob's post?

Israel wanders away as a result of sin, God never "made" Israel wander away.
God hardened pharaoh's heart (indirectly as a result of His actions)
Who causes men not to rever Him? Not God. God wants obedience from us, He doesn't force us to obey, and why would God force us not to? Makes no sense.

Isa. 63:17 was in reference to Isa. 53:6 where they wandered away deliberately and God LET them wander away (can you say 'free will'?). This verse is them talking back to God saying basically, "why did you let us wander, it's your fault we are in this mess", similar to the response of Adam and Eve "the woman YOU gave me...", "the serpent (which you put here) deceived me...". This is nothing more than man trying to put the blame of their sin and misfortune upon God, saying "you made me do it", similar to Romans 9.

[ August 22, 2005, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: webdog ]

 

And that is only fair. I am 100% with you on that. The "problem" is that you have to first state your OWN views on Isaiah 63 before contrasting them with mine. I am simply trying to get you to clarify your OWN views on the text YOU have raised.

Had you actually been reading you would have seen that I am also giving you the answers to your questions using texts that expand on that same point. I SHOW how God takes action to HARDEN the wicked.

Try "reading" the posts.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

I compliment you on your change of tactics but it is of no concern of mine if you will not answer my questions. How does my clarificating Is 63 have any influence on what you believe? I asked some simple questions but first I must answer yours and you have never finished with questions and have never started with answers.

ISA 63:17 Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.
Who is it that makes Israel wander away?
Who is it that hardens their hearts.
Who is it that causes men to not revere Him?
...But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Who hardened Pharaoh's heart Bob please.

Try answering the questions please. Keep it short or slow man.


Hello webdog.

I don't need to read Bob's posts to know he has still not answered do I? No. But I usually skim them to see if...but I don't believe in if.
So I won't accept your answers as answers because they are conditional so ask me again without the condition.

I can indeed say free will. I can also tell you where you can find it. It is in God that you find free will nowhere else otherwise He has none. If He can't He ain't.

john.

 

I believe when the bible says, "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life," That is exactly what it meant. God loved the entire world, God sent Christ for the whold world, and God offered forgiveness to everyone who believes.

I believe the Calvinist view point is not loving at all. It says, basically, that God is playing some kind of great cosmic game. He cast lots in heaven or something, and divided the world into groups he would pretend to love and groups he admitted he hated. That's how it comes across to me whenever I hear a Calvinist's view that He only allowed some to hear the message of grace, and He only allowed a few to come to Christ, and that He only calls some. I've heard a thousand ways of trying to go, "No, no, that isn't what we meant," but - - - it STILL comes across as, "God hated everyone, but he let a few be saved anyway."

I read, "God is love."
I believe God loves EVERYONE.
But He loves them ENOUGH that He OFFERS grace and mercy to them, He doesn't FORCE it on them.

 

Unfortunately for you, your view as stated cannot be reconciled with the whole of scripture. It cannot be reconciled with the sovereignty of God. It cannot be reconciled with the definition of the word "grace".

Then that is your problem. It is no game at all. It is reality... and a plan to glorify God in a way that He has sovereignly determined. It is not your prerogative to judge His judgment.

This is a fact no matter what position you take. The FACT is that not everyone hears the gospel. The FACT is that some die condemned having never known anything of Jesus.

You are hung up on this idea that God is somehow "unfair" if everyone doesn't get an equal chance. I am sincerely sorry but that is beyond your authority to judge.

The scriptural fact is that in all fairness NNE should be given a chance at all. It is purely a matter of sovereign grace that anyone is saved. Those who remain lost are getting what they deserve... and they are getting what we deserve. How is that unfair to those who die in their sins? You don't think they are getting something that they don't deserve do you? Do you think they deserve salvation since God granted it to you as a free gift?

God hates sin. All men willfully sin. God saves some in spite of their sin.

So we are right back to the question you will not answer. If it is just an "offer" that He doesn't "FORCE" on them (which of course I don't believe He forces us any way) then what about one person causes them to believe while another with equal or greater opportunity does not?

I still have not seen anyone come up with another solution to this question other than God ultimately choosing and causing a person's belief or else the goodness of the person being the cause for their belief. The second answer obviously involves merit and is therefore contradictory to the Bible's declaration that salvation is by grace.

 

Hello TexasSky.

But the word 'world' is ambiguous and no weight can be placed on the word in the way you do.

Yes but I fear you have made love God. The love of love is lovely but we are told to love Him and He tells us quite plainly that Jacob He loved and Esau He hated and no matter what anyone says to the contrary Jacob was loved and Esau was hated.
How do you handle the fact that He sends these loved ones to Hell. Are His Hands tied by the law and is He compelled to sentence sinners? Love, real true love never fails. If God loves everyone then either He loves those He tortures in Hell while continuing to love them? Love has failed in your beliefs and in mine love never fails.
1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails...

That's lovely and I know His love will never fail me. He sent Jesus to die for me and He wrote the Song of Songs to me. We must submit to the awfulness.

john.

 

So if the son of a judge commits a crime and ends up before his father in court, since love never fails, the judge should let his son go free just because he love him? You mean to tell me that because you love someone, that person is no longer responsible for their actions?

The Bible tells us that whoever does not put their faith in God's Son, goes to hell. They are paying the price for not believing. This does not mean God does or doesn't love them because they go to hell, it means hell was deserved because they did not do what they were supposed to do, and God is just and righteous. That argument "how can God send those He loves to hell" is weak and would make God unfair since only those He hates go to Hell, while only those He loves go to Heaven. If this is not impartial, I don't know what is.

 

...whatever...