Who Follows Apollos?

Tuor:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
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It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
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to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
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until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
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Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
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Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scripture here is saying that this is the reason he has given us the leaders of His Church so that we may "grow in the truth". Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.” Remember Scripture tells us the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Remember the contentious people in the other quote didn’t belong to Jesus Christ. Scripture wasn’t saying the contentious people were OK with God. We have not been left by Jesus to every wind of teaching.

I am having a hard time understanding where you are going with this because at times you seem to make a case that what we believe doesn't’ matter, all that matters is believing in Jesus Christ. Scripture tells us that what we believe does matter. St. Paul says to hold firmly to what he is teaching. He is saying here this is why we have been given our church leaders, so that we can speak the truth in love. Jesus’ church has the truth. We can grow in the truth and not be tossed back and forth, blown here and there by the wind of every teaching.

What you are proposing is not the church that Jesus established it is just another denomination. You are proposing a church that celebrates an “open communion” with anyone who believes they are Christian regardless of what they believe the Lord's supper to be. You are proposing a church that has no authority to teach the truth. You say that the church leaders have no right to make rules about who can receive the Eucharist. Jesus said to His church however :
"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:18
This is real authority.

You are proposing that the church does not share in the body of Christ and share in the blood of Christ in communion.

1 Cor 10:16
Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

Basically you are just coming up with another division that includes what you believe to be true. A church with no authority and only a symbol for communion. You are saying that the truth can not really be known. This is why it is unimportant what anyone believes the Lord’s Supper to be. You are saying that any church that has a closed communion has no authority to make this decision. Jesus gave His church on earth the truth, and He gave His church on earth real authority.

God Bless

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

Tuor:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I am sorry Disciple, but what the early church fathers wrote is not canon, if it were, then it would have been included in the Bible(even yours doesn't include the writings of early church fathers).

By the way, what do you think the verses I linked in my earlier post mean?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My post was my response to your verses. What I posted was Ephesians 4. Nothing from the Church fathers. What St. Paul is saying here is Canon. I just posted it in more context 11-15 than you did. You had left out St. Paul's reason for saying what he was saying.

I will repeat it. Scripture here is saying that this is the reason he has given us the leaders of His Church so that we may "grow in the truth". Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.” Remember Scripture tells us the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Jesus established a church with unity and authority. All the verses in Scripture support this including the ones we have both used.

God Bless

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do you believe Ephesians 4 makes the writings and teachings of all the Roman Catholic leaders throughout history canon?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tuor: You presented Ephesians 4 to me. No, Ephesians 4 does not make anyones writings canon. Pauls writings here in Ephesians is canon however, and as such is the word of God.

God Bless

 

Tuor,
Can you tell me who these popes who were who were not Christian? Do you mean when popes sinned? There's a big difference between someone not being a Christian or being a Christian who sinned. Could you clarify what you meant?

None of the popes have been sinless. They are human and therefore sinners, in need of repentance and confession, just as you and I are. Would you reject being a Christian because of the sins of Christians?
I hope not. Neither would I reject being a member of the Catholic Church because of the sins of a Catholic person. The sins of a representative of the Church does not take away from the holiness of the Church.

Pauline

 

Tuor,
Define what you mean by "canon". please? And, also, tell me how you understand Paul's words in 1 Cor 11,29. In your view, how would a Christian not discern the Lord's body?

Pauline

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Pauline ]

 

Tuor, you say:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But to say that the Church holds all the answers (official Church positions are there because Church officials put them there), doesn't that make the descions and writings of the Church leaders canon? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, not at all, the canon of Scripture is closed. It is Jesus Christ who says the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. 1 Tim 3:15 He has given the Church His truth, through the Holy Spirit. Jn 16:13 He also said what you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Matt 18:18 Jesus gave His authority to the church. It is He (Christ) who gave His church apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers so that we could grow in the truth. Eph 4:11 ,

This is from the word of God, given to us by the Word of God. To say His Church doesn’t know what this all means, is to deny that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Jesus himself explained what it all meant before he went to heaven, and the Holy Spirit was promised to guide His Church to all truth. This understanding of the Church wasn’t lost. Jesus gave the Church a job to do. He entrusted His Church with the commission make disciples of all nations, to baptize, and to teach all He has commanded. Matt 28:19-20 This means the Church is a teaching Church with authority from Jesus Himself.

God Bless

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

Tuor:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Disciple,
You are making a giant leap of faith to say that Jesus was talking about the modern Roman Catholic Church when he made those statements. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Matt 16:18 When He gave that teaching commission to go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them, and teaching them to observe all he has commanded (Matt 28:19-20) Jesus was talking to a real visible Church.

Jesus says He himself has sanctified His Church: "Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that He might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." Eph 5:25-27

The Church is not dependent on any persons goodness or holiness. Church leaders are sinners like all of us. Even St. Peter and St. Paul sinned. It is Jesus Christ Himself that has sanctified His church. He gave it His authority, Mt 18:18 He gave it the Holy Spirit. This is why He calls the Church the pillar and foundation of truth 1 Tim 3:15 and prayed that the Church would be one as He and the Father were one. Jn 17:22

Yes, this is the Catholic Church. It also was the Catholic Church at Catholic councils that determined the canon of Holy Scripture because the Holy Spirit guided her to do so. The Church is is still around just as Jesus has promised.

God Bless

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

Myths are still around, too.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
Tuor,
Can you tell me who these popes who were who were not Christian? Do you mean when popes sinned? There's a big difference between someone not being a Christian or being a Christian who sinned. Could you clarify what you meant?

None of the popes have been sinless. They are human and therefore sinners, in need of repentance and confession, just as you and I are. Would you reject being a Christian because of the sins of Christians?
I hope not. Neither would I reject being a member of the Catholic Church because of the sins of a Catholic person. The sins of a representative of the Church does not take away from the holiness of the Church.

Pauline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that a proper Catholic had to believe that the Pope was infallible.

 

Tuor,
I think the pope you are looking for is Alexander VI. Want me to tell you some true stories about him? He's the worst example to come up with. Just want to make your research a little easier! BTW, You seem to be confusing the doctrine of infallibility with the definition of the word impeccability. That won't work as a challenge to Catholicism, because you'd be challenging on the basis of a fallacy -- on something that we do not believe.

wishtolearn,
Every faithful Catholic does believe in papal infallibility. Could you define for me what you think the term means? You, too, seem to think it means impeccability. Those are two very different things.

To All,
It is very important for anyone who wants to challenge the Catholic Faith to have an accurate understanding of the doctrine of infallibility. Otherwise, you're just beating the air, or a straw man!

Pauline

 

Pauline:

Here's a definition of infallibility according to your church:

the dogma that the pope can not, when acting in his official character of supreme pontiff, err in defining a doctrine of Christian faith or rule of morals, to be held by the church. This was decreed by the Ecumenical Council at the Vatican, July 18, 1870.

Impeccability means: Having no flaws; perfect. Incapable of sin or wrongdoing

Infallible means: Incapable of erring: an infallible guide; an infallible source of information. Incapable of failing; certain: an infallible antidote; an infallible rule


Infallibility and impeccability are two of his attributes. --Pope.

Attribute means: A quality or characteristic inherent in or ascribed to someone or something

Which of these two words,infallible and impeccable, do you classify the pope as?


Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. Revelation 4:8b
Revelation

 

Revelation:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Which of these two words,infallible and impeccable, do you classify the pope as?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Infallible only in regard to teachings on faith and morals. He is not impeccable. He can sin just like St. Peter.

God Bless

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]