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Who Follows Apollos?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Eladar, Aug 27, 2001.

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  1. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Mt 28:18-20 - Jesus delegates all power to Apostles

    Jn 20:23 - power to forgive sin


    The Apostles are dead.


    1 Cor 11:23-24 - power to offer sacrifice (Eucharist)

    He is talking about the Gospel. In any case, Paul is dead.

    Try proving the power and rights of the Apostles are indeed passed down from generation to generation by man.

    No where in the Bible does it say such a thing.
     
    #121 Eladar, Jan 24, 2002
  2. Pauline

    Pauline New Member

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    Tuor,
    You can prove that Catholics have done non- Christian things. So can I. And, I can prove that members of other Christian churches have done non-Christian things. So that's a stand off.

    But a member or group of members or even the leadership of a church doing non-Christian things, does not make the entire church guilty of having done it.

    You are failing to prove anything against the Catholic Church.

    I keep telling all of you on this board, the only effective way you can ever attack the Catholic Church is to PROVE that one or more of her dogmas are false. You think they are, you want them to be, but you can't prove it.
    And I notice that few of the challenges on this board are in regard to true dogmas of the Catholic Church. I wonder why that is?

    Most challenges to the Catholic Church on this board are on false accusations or wildly exaggerated and distorted charges. You'll continue to fail on those. There are non-Catholics on this board who repeatedly tell you that you're failing in this. They have no axes to grind, so maybe you ought to heed what they say and how they view the discussion. And, maybe you ought to learn enough about our actual dogmas to try to challenge those.

    Pauline
     
    #122 Pauline, Jan 24, 2002
  3. Pauline

    Pauline New Member

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    Tuor,
    You're correct about Jesus delegating the power to forgive sins to the apostles. And they are dead.

    So explain to me how He kept His promise to them (Mt 28, 18-20) that He would be with them always as they went out teaching and baptizing.

    Pauline
     
    #123 Pauline, Jan 24, 2002
  4. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Tuor,

    Why would God visit Earth and give authority to twelve men whose authority would stop at their deaths?
     
    #124 Carson Weber, Jan 24, 2002
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    &lt;&lt;Why would God visit Earth and give authority to twelve men whose authority would stop at their deaths? &gt;&gt;

    Their authority didn't end.
    The Apostle's legacy is the Word of God they left behind.

    We have the Spirit of God and Christ to guide us.

    Romans 8
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    Jesus said by their fruits ye shall know them. When the RCC rose to world power they showed their true color - blood red.

    A stain that can not be purged.

    HankD
     
    #125 HankD, Jan 24, 2002
  6. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Pauline,

    But a member or group of members or even the leadership of a church doing non-Christian things, does not make the entire church guilty of having done it.

    I am not saying that the individuals of today are responsible for the actions of others. I am saying if you are going to claim that the institution is a perfectly holy line of descent from the Apostles, then every link of that chain must be holy. If the power is transfered from generation to generation, then there can be no break. If the special power of understanding and holiness through the holy spirit indeed passed from generation to generation, then it would have been impossible for the leaders of the church to act the way they did. It would have been impossible for the church, as an institution, to hold a belief that was not from God.

    The fact is that at times, the Roman Catholic Church did hold beliefs that were not from God.

    How can the unholy pass on that which is holy?

    As to your question about what Jesus said, I don't see how Jesus being with them has anything to do with their ability to pass on their special authority.
     
    #126 Eladar, Jan 25, 2002
  7. Pauline

    Pauline New Member

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    Tuor,
    You keep mixing up infallibility with impeccability.
    Pauline
     
    #127 Pauline, Jan 25, 2002
  8. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Pauline,

    I'd disagree. You seem to mixed up between what are the fruits of God vs. fruits of man.

    What is of God is perfect. I believe this statement sums it up pretty well:

    Unholy can't pass on that which is holy.


    If at any time, the Roman Catholic Church was unholy, the chain had to be broken. As I said before, the fact that the chain was broken is proof that the chain really never existed to begin with. The chain belief has been proven to be nothing more than a false implication of scritpture.
     
    #128 Eladar, Jan 25, 2002
  9. Pauline

    Pauline New Member

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    Tuor,
    You've asserted a lot of things. But you haven't proven anything. You would like to show that the Catholic Church has taught (dogmas) that are unChristian. But that assertion is false. The Catholic Church's dogmas are statements of truth given to the Church by divine revelation. And that can be shown by an honest study of scripture and of the writings of the apostolic fathers.

    And you seem to continue to mix up infallibility in teaching (dogmas) with impeccability of the men. You also seem to continue to try to make what individual members of the Church have done as having been done by the Church. You wouldn't do the same in regard to your own church so why try to do it in regard to the Catholic Church?

    Pauline

    [ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Pauline ]
     
    #129 Pauline, Jan 25, 2002
  10. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Did or did the Catholic Church at one point in time teach that heretics should be burned at the stake?
     
    #130 Eladar, Jan 25, 2002
  11. Pauline

    Pauline New Member

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    Tuor,
    Was that a dogma of the Church? No. The Church is the teaching Church. To prove the Church wrong, you're going to have to prove a dogma is wrong. Dogmas come from divine revelation. So they cannot be wrong.

    Burning of heretics was something done by all peoples during a certain period of time. It has nothing to do with dogma.

    If acceptimg the practice of burning heretics proves a church is not Christian, then none of those who accept Calvin's doctrines are Christians. Calvin certainly burned his heretic. I don't know if Luther wrote on "burning of heretics" but he did believe that heretics could be put to death. So, by your standard, anyone who followed after Luther is not a Christian. Your own assertion would carry out to say that Protestants are not Christians. Do you so assert?

    There is no way that you can prove the Catholic Church to be non-Christian by a pope's acceptance of the burning of heretics.
    You'd have to then say that no one who believes in capital punishment is a Christian. So you say that?

    I think you're getting yourself into the corner of saying that there are no Christians on earth -- because we are all descended from forebears who believed in the burning, or worse, of heretics. What could be worse than burning? I think to be hung, drawn and quartered was worse. And it was Protestants who did that to Catholics.

    Pauline
     
    #131 Pauline, Jan 25, 2002
  12. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Pauline,

    The main difference between Calvinists and Catholics is this:

    Catholics believe in teachings outside of the Bible because of church teachings and traditions. This claim comes from the fact that the power of the apostles is passed down from generation to generation.

    I think I've proven that theory false.

    Obviously the authority given to the apostles does not reside in the RCC. If it did, well I've already gone into that.

    Therefore Church teachings that are not in the Bible are suspect. Jesus says not to make oaths to the church, Catholics say make oaths to the church. Jesus says to pray to God the Father directly, Catholics say to pray to saints. Catholics make claims about their perfect understanding of scripture based on authoriy I've shown to be false.

    Calvinists on the other hand, just happen to agree with Calvin about what the Bible says.

    If you based all of your beliefs on the Bible itself, then I'd say fine.

    If you didn't claim to be the God's true church I'd say fine.

    But to blindly hold on to extra-Biblical teachings and say that they come from Church leaders who are men is rather disturbing. Especially those teachings that are spoken directly against in the Bible.


    You'd have to then say that no one who believes in capital punishment is a Christian.

    Not at all.

    I think you're getting yourself into the corner of saying that there are no Christians on earth -- because we are all descended from forebears who believed in the burning, or worse, of heretics. What could be worse than burning? I think to be hung, drawn and quartered was worse. And it was Protestants who did that to Catholics.

    Not at all. I don't base my beliefs on how others interpret the Bible. I base my belief based on how I interpret the Bible. I may be wrong on some things, but at least I don't claim to have a perfect understanding, unlike certain institutions.

    [ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
    #132 Eladar, Jan 25, 2002
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