Who has not failed?

HP: And where might you get that idea from??? Certainly not from Scripture.

Who said Paul was guilty of murder?

 

Steaver, when you start accusing Paul of murder on this thread, on this thread the point should be cleared up. That is no rabbit trail.

What does 'who Paul was taking his orders from' have to do with "most of the other Pharisees" considering themselves blameless just as Paul, as you proclaim???? Show us the evidence and the connection.

 

Indeed - whether it be 2nd commandment breaking - worshipping images in church...
or praying to the dead in violation of Is 8:19-20
or ignoring the Bible teaching on believer's baptism
or ignoring the 4th commandment

Those of us who "see" the problem with violating God's Word in those area and are fully convicted - cannot claim blindness for ignoring that part of God's word.

But those who (as Paul says) "acted ignorantly in unbelief" 1Tim 1:13 are not held accountable for those specific sins (though they certainly are accountable for a host of other sins) until God chooses to convict them on those points. Since I do not have "The Holy Spirit's diary" I have no idea who is convicted on which one of those points at any given time -- God knows.

John 9:41 "Jesus said - 'IF you were blind you would have no sin but sine you say 'WE SEE' your sin remains' "

in Christ,

Bob

 

Here is what Paul says OF HIMSELF in those days.

1Tim 1

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,
13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;

Steaver - you have been carefully explaining to us WHY Paul should not have "received mercy" as though "acting ignorantly in unbelief" is not a factor -- as if James 4:17 is wrong "to him who KNOWS to do right and does it not TO HIM it is sin".

Your argument is "with the text" and so since you have not accepted it - you complain when you find someone who DOES accept that text. But in the end your argument is still just with the text itsef.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I find your logic illusive.

you argue that if the Holy Spirit is not convicting every one of every sin -- then He cannot be convicting EVERYONE of ANY particular sin no matter what John 16 says to the contrary.

Your argument is flawed. Your argument is "with the text"

God never says that he gives all mankind perfect understanding on all doctrine.

God never says there is no such thing as Paul's condition acting "ignorantly in unbelief".

God DOES show in Romans 1 that there are certain sins that even "Barbarians" are aware of - and so "they are without excuse".

But he never argues that EVERYONE on the planet knows about Bible baptism of believers.

He never argues that everyone knows about the book of Genesis.

He never argues that everyone knows about the command not to use images in worship.

And obviously to the extent that they engage in those things there are in fact SOME who "act ignorantly in unbelief". This is not to say that ALL are without knowledge in those areas - but certainly SOME are without that understanding.

Just stating the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

My point is that there is no way around John 16 - where the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

There is no way around 1Tim 1 where Paul admits there are those who "act ignorantly in unbelief" in certain areas -- but Paul does not claim anyone is ignorant of ALL sin.

And you mention the fact that Paul living in Jerusalem at the time of christ would most certainly have heard what Christ, and John the baptizer and the apostles were preaching - yet he rejected it "ignorantly in unbelief" as he said.

You seem to object to that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

If I understand you right the "world" was that area that Paul and Christ could and did reach at their respective times.
If that were true, then the Great Commission of Mat.28:19,20--"Go, and teach ALL Nations...," becomes irrelevant.

 

Have I broken His commandments since I have ben saved? I said "Yes" of course. Many of them...sometimes many times. I dont want to, but I do. Just like every other christian who has ever lived.

But in another sense, no...not ever, since being born again.

The reason of course is that Christ took all my sins upon Himself, so...I have no sins on my record with God. Even though He sees me when blow it and sin...He has no sins on my record in heaven.

PRAISE GOD!!!

:godisgood:

 

No I think that the "World" in John 16 is the same as the "World" in John 1 where John says that WORLD was made by Christ - we often call it planet earth today.

In John 12:32 Christ says He draws ALL mankind unto Him.

All are drawn and all are convicted of sin - but not all choose to respond to it. Notice that in Matt 23 Christ does not say "you had one chance to say yes and then we slam the door" -- rather he accuses the Jews of rejecting message after message - then he promises to send even more prophets to them - but in the end they turn them all away.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In Christ's teaching in Matt 18 on "forgiveness revoked" he never makes the problem "failure of Christ to be faithful to His flock".

In Christs John 15 teaching on "branches IN ME" that are BROKEN off and cast into the fire and die -- Christ never says that the "problem" in those cases has to do with some "failur on the part of Christ to be faithful to his flock".

To the degree that we all see that point - I think there is common ground.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1. I claim that the Holy Spirit ALWAYs convicts ALL of sin.
2. I also claim that the Holy Spirit does not make ALL sin apparent to ALL and I prove that with Paul's own 1Tim 1 "I acted ignorantly in unbelief".

My POV states that God "convicts ALL" the world of Sin - but it also allows for the truth of the scripture we find in 1Tim 1 where some are "acting out of ignorance and in unbelief".

I think you just painted yourself in a corner by arguing that Paul's statement about "acting in ignorance out of unbelief" is placing him outside the reach of the Holy Spirit from which there is no recovery.

Paul says he was shown mercy "because" he acted ignorantly in unbelief RATHER than in bold defiance against God.

As had Saul -- in fact Saul was a leading student of Scripture. The bible told him "thou shalt not murder" just as it tells us today.

But "he thought" that the "saints were in fact heretics and blasphemers".

My POV does not even remotely allow for Calvinism's limited atonement because I do not argue that God does not convict the wicked nor that He "does not convict some of the wicked" of sin and of their need.

Rather I agrue the truth of John 16 that ALL are convicted - the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment.

But as Paul points out in 1Tim 1 He does not convict ALL the World of ALL their sin - because some are "acting in ignorance out of unbelief".

But the fact that they are ALL convicted of sin means they are ALL made aware of their need of salvation.

The fact that they are ALL convicted of "Righteousness and judgment" means that they are ALL convicted that God is the answer to their sin problem.

Thus as Paul points out in Romans1 EVEN the barbarians with no Bible access at all "are without excuse"


in Christ,

Bob