Featured Who Has Part in The First Resurrection?

If you can't see the difference between me saying that your tradition influences your interpretation, and you saying that I view the very Word of God as tradition, then I simply can't help you. That is a basic category error.

You're joking right? I fully explained this already. One more time, as simply as I possibly can make it:

In the book of Revelation, the world ends at least 3 times. Clearly destroying your idea of "general chronology" since we all know the world will only end once. Got it?

Nope you don't hold to any tradition at all!
It's the ones who cry "I have no tradition!" that are really the most blinded by their tradition.
I gladly acknowledge I have tradition. But I pray that God removes bad tradition and allows me to interpret the text clearly, as he intended it to be understood and not how my tradition dictates.

No debate here. But again, you are saying that the two events mentioned are different because the one mentions that Jesus comes in the clouds but actually returning to the mount is not mentioned. I am pointing out that the mount is not mentioned in either text, so based on your method of interpretation, neither of the passages can be the return to the mount. You need to be consistent.

Yep it is clear. It's also painfully clear that the 1 Thess and 2 Thess passages describe two aspects of the same event. You keep saying that in 1 Thess 4, that the Lord comes "to the clouds" as if that is his final destination in this event. As if he comes down to the clouds and the text says he goes no further. You are inserting that into the text.

It says:

1Th 4:16-17 NASB - For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

We go to meet the Lord in the clouds. That is where those who are alive at his return go to meet him and finally see him face to face. It says nothing about that being Jesus' final destination.

See above, and the last several posts I've made. I've clearly explained this to you.

I've heard that is the common route people take. Sam Storms went that way too IRRC. I'm Historic pre ATM, but like you said, as you understand the covenants, Amill becomes more likely. I'm leaning that way, but not there yet.

Yes! Exactly :applause:

 

Yep. Progressive parallelism is a good term for it. I've heard of the 7 parallels view, but I'm unconvinced as of yet, so I say "at least" 3 times.

 

I don't believe in tradition. I find it an insult that you accuse me of such. If you are a Calvinist and believe in the "tradition" of Calvin that is your problem. I study the Bible; am a "Biblicist" if you will.
I come from a RCC background where tradition and the Bible were on par with each other. When I got saved I did away with all tradition, and put the Bible as my final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine.
I go to my Bible for answers. Now you tell me. What tradition are you referring to? You may have tradition; I don't. I get my answers from the Word of God. Tradition only influenced me when I was a Catholic. Prove me wrong or stop with the false allegations. It is insulting.

Let's call the bluff this time. Don't make assertions unless you can back it up. The world ends three times, eh?
Chapter and verse! Provide the three times that it ends--the exact references!

The Bible is my authority and from there I get my beliefs, not from the RCC magesterium, and not from the Institutes of Calvin. Perhaps you should define "tradition," lest we be talking past each other. By the definition I know and understand, I do not follow tradition, and in fact we are commanded not to. (not to follow the traditions of men).

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
--Christ descends. He does not land on the earth here. There is no indication that he actually touches the earth.
However, the dead in Christ rise. We which are alive at this time arise.
Both of the above meet Christ in the air or clouds where Christ is, not on the earth, and, yes we shall see him as he is, if not in the clouds then in heaven.
The even is instantaneous!
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
--The twinkling of an eye is very fast.

Which is it? An ascent or a descent? He descends to the clouds. We ascend to the clouds and there meet him. It is during this time we receive our glorified bodies.
As it says:
1 Corinthians 15:52-53 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
--But our direction is upward. 1Cor.15 makes that abundantly clear. So does Rev.19, which indicates that we have already been there for some time--at the marriage feast of the Lamb. There are two resurrections, not one. None of the unjust are raised at this time. Only believers are mentioned. And the direction is an ascent. We meet the Lord, and with him arise.
Thus the two events (1Thes.4 and 2Thes.1) cannot be the same event. Impossible.

Yep, all opinion, and every time it falls short of Scripture.

 

You are confused. The seven weeks of verse 25 are included in the 69 weeks. The first seven weeks are the time it took for them to rebuild the Temple. Then there was 62 more weeks from the commandment of Cyrus to the death of Christ--a total 483 years or 69 weeks.
Of Daniel's 70 weeks, 69 have passed and one still remains.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
--There is a definite week of seven years which the Antichrist makes a covenant with the Jews, and then breaks it in the midst by desecrating the Temple. It is right there. No allegorizing is needed.

Dan.9:27 clearly says one week is left. Your unbelief doesn't change facts.

I have done the study OR. Your answer is a cop-out and you know it!
I'll state my question again so the readers can see what you are answering:

Does history record a hailstorm, for example, with hailstones each weight a hundred pounds? Rev.16:21 does.

No, of course you don't have the time to go through 2,000 years of history to see if this ever happened. We know it didn't. It was never recorded. The Great Tribulation never happened. :laugh:
Please take the study of the Scriptures a bit more seriously OR.

Not even Peter believes you. Nor does the prophet Joel.

Act 2:16-20
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Peter quotes this prophesy and says that it happened on that day. The truth is that it was only partially fulfilled.
Were there wonders in heaven above; signs in the earth beneath, blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke; the sun turned to darkness, the moon to blood--just before that great and notable day of the Lord?
No! That great and notable day is at the end of the Tribulation, when Christ will come in vengeance to defeat the enemies of Israel.

It will be at the end of the 70th week of Daniel.

The antichrist has not yet come. He will make a covenant with Israel.
Besides, in this day and age, all kinds of nations have made treaties, agreements, pacts, etc. Israel has different agreements with America today.

 

You never actually dealt with the issue. You were accusing me of believing the very Word of God, the scriptures, are just tradition. I said you were using your tradition to interpret scripture. Do you not see the VAST difference between the two?

We all study the Bible. At least I hope we do. However, we are coming to different conclusions. Therefore we clearly are both being influenced by extra-biblical sources, e.g., tradition, ignorance, personal bias etc. To say you get all your answers from the word of God and you have no tradition at all means that you have a perfect theology. Are you really comfortable saying you perfectly understand the Word of God? That you have arrived at a perfect system of doctrine and that there is no area where you must learn or grow or, dare I say it, change?

Revelation 6:12-17
Revelation 11:15-19
Revelation 19:11-16

Three pictures of the same event.

Cue the cries of, "but the judgments are chronological!"

Tradition:
an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom) http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tradition

Not sure why you feel the need to bring up the RCC or Calvin as a smokescreen. I sincerely hope you don't truly think you have no tradition. We all have tradition.

Christ descends, yes, but 1 Thess 4 does not say that he only descends to the clouds. There is nothing in the text that rules out his coming to Earth. The purpose of the passage is to comfort the Thessalonian believers about the state of their dead loved ones. They are being comforted by the promise that we will all, dead and alive, be reunited together with Christ at his return. What follows after the gathering together (rapture) is not the purpose of the passage.

I am aware that it is instantaneous. What's your point?

Christ descends and we ascend to meet him in the air. Just like the passage says. Again, the focus here is on our gathering together to him, not what happens afterward. The passage never says we go to Heaven after this event. It simply says after this gathering we will always be with the Lord. There is nothing in either text (1 Thess 4 or 2 Thess 2) that makes them mutually exclusive. You are reading your traditional, dispensational interpretation into it, just like I did for years.

Further, the word translated as "meet" is not an uncommon word. It was often used to describe the process of the people of a city going out to greet a ruler or dignitary while they were still off in the distance and accompany them back to the official's destination. The word (and another related word) is used in precisely that way in Matt 25 in a parable about the return of Christ!

Mat 25:1 NASB - "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet (related word) the bridegroom.
Mat 25:5 NASB - "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
Mat 25:6 NASB - "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet (Same as 1 Thess 4) him.'
Mat 25:10 NASB - "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.

It really is sad to see you being so hateful towards someone you don't know and so disparaging to a view you apparently don't understand or even want to try to understand.

I'm curious DHK, how old are you? What kind of Baptist church do you attend?

 

It must be an awfully weak reign due to the fact we each sin constantly. The Bible says we cannot serve two masters.

 

And you are wrong. I use the Bible. I am guided by the Holy Spirit. I do consult other reference material. But tradition I do not use. In fact I would be disobeying the Word of God if I relied upon tradition:

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Matthew 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mark 7:7-8 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

I have sources which are extra-biblical: historical, commentaries, dictionaries, reference books, etc. That does not fall into the category of tradition, but rather of study.
If your tradition includes ignorance and personal bias you need to do something about that.

How do you get the end of the world out of this?
Revelation 6:16-17 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
--It is the end of the Tribulation meant to coincide with Rev.19:11-16. Most of the book is chronological. But the sixth seal occurs at the end. I have posted this before. I said it has a general chronology, not a strict chronology.

Revelation 11:18-19 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
--No where near the end of anything. This is simply the judgment of the seventh angel, and it will get worse after this. There are still seven vials of judgment to come. What makes you think this is the end of the world? That is a stretch of the imagination! This is God pouring out his wrath upon the world during this seven year period of Great Tribulation.

This is a description of Christ, and his coming. Read what happens after verse 16. After Christs comes (and his saints which were already in heaven because of the rapture, come with him) he sets up His Kingdom and will reign for a thousand years. The thousand years is mentioned at the beginning of chapter 20.
--There is no end of the world here. It is the end of the Tribulation Period.

No they are not. The sixth seal takes place just before the coming of Christ. You have that close. The reference in chapter 11 isn't even close.

Again there follows a general chronology, not a specific chronology. I noted that you put gaps in there where none are to be put, thus your confusion.

Sure, like me getting together with my family at Christmas time.
I am not sure how that affects my understanding of the Bible. Would you like to enlighten me? I have no traditions that affect my understanding of the Bible. Why do you insist that I do? You don't even know me.

What follows after: "Wherefore comfort one another with these words," is not the purpose?? Yes it was. It was a comforting passage to know that Christ was coming for his own, that we would be with Him, resurrected as His Bride. The events following the meeting of the Bride and Bridegroom would follow immediately, not vengeance on the enemies of Christ and Israel.

That we would be in heaven as described in 1Cor.15, not on earth. We are given a "celestial body" for a reason, and that is not to be immediately on earth.

 

What made you stray away from the truth? As Paul said: "Who hath bewitched you?"
The two events are mutually exclusive and cannot be reconciled into one event, and you are not doing a very good job.

 

We agree. Jesus was crucified after 69 weeks. So far so good.
The passage starts out "70 weeks are determined on thy people..."
70 minus 69 equals one. There is still one week to account for. It is called Daniel's 70th week. That prophetic week has not happened yet, and all the prophecies related to it have not happened it: from Joel 2:28ff, Acts 2, Rev.6-19, etc.
Your interpretation fails to account for this week of years and the events surrounding it (like a hailstorm with hailstones of one hundred pounds each); just one example.

Do you deny that an antichrist will come against all evidence of a great plethora of Scripture which says he will? That is astounding!

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
--He is called the "man of sin." He will sit in the temple of God. He will deceive others and make others think that he is god. This is the antichrist.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
--that Wicked, or "Wicked One," or as the ASV puts it "Lawless One," is again the Antichrist. Wickedness is always at work, and will continue to work, as does lawlessness. But when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, the Antichrist will have full control over mankind. Christians, the salt of the earth, will have been removed. Evil will go on unrestrained. And at the end of that seven years, "Christ will destroy with the brightness of his coming."

Read the rest of the passage: 9-13.
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
There is "one antichrist" that will come. Now many stand against Christ as John describes. But in the end times, there will be one particular one that will come.

I don't have the space or time to list all the references here for you. There is a multitude of them.

IMO, that is a blasphemous interpretation, as the one who confirms the covenant is the one who breaks the covenant, and desecrates the Temple. Do you believe Jesus blasphemes and desecrates the Temple? Is he that kind of person?

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
--It is the same person as this one.

Jesus identifies the one who makes that covenant and then breaks it:
Matthew 24:15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
--It is the antichrist. He is speaking to the Jews here. They are the Jews that would be alive during the Tribulation Period. They are to flee for safety when they see this happen. Terrible things are about to happen. This is their sign. Half way through the Tribulation is the start of the worst part of God's wrath being poured out against the wickedness of those on the earth.

That has nothing to do with his 70th week, and all the related prophecies.

So? That has been dealt with already. Christ died. The 69 weeks were over.
NO! DHK, verse 27 does not clearly say one week is left. Verse 27 says there is only a half week following the sacrificial death of the Messiah. It is only because you and John Nelson Darby have divined some mythical person who will make a covenant with revived Israel.

Jesus Christ and the Apostles are not the wrong men. I follow them.

I have not read Darby. I don't read a Scofield Bible. Don't level false accusations against me. Yes, I am a Biblicist. I get my teachings from the Bible. Where do you get yours from?[/quote]

When "prophecies" have not yet been recorded then they have not yet happened have they. There are some here that like to think Christ has already come a second time. But there would be some evidence of that if he had come.
Let's look at the facts:
JW's believe in a spirit resurrection thereby denying the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. There are some here that come close to such a belief.
The JW's believe that Christ is Michael, an angel. Any other similarities?
The JW's believe that Christ really didn't die on the cross. It was someone else--perhaps Barabbas.
In the last point what I am getting at is if you believe 1,000 years is not one thousand years then you can believe Christ did not die, did not rise, and isn't even Christ. You can make the Bible say anything you want to say.

I have posted similar information time and time again. In Islamic nations today Christians are undergoing intense persecution. That doesn't make today the time of The Tribulation. That is nonsense. There is a seven year period of Tribulation where God will pour out HIS wrath out against the wickedness of this world.
What you are speaking of is Satan's wrath against God's saints. Those are two very different things.

Likewise.:thumbsup:

Not me. The Scripture I quoted says: "It SHALL come to pass.
I believe that. Do you? No you don't. You believe "It has come to pass." But that is not what it says.

You have not been there in 2,000 years of history, but we do have records.
You have not been in the Great Tribulation nor ever heard of it, because it has not happened yet.
You cannot account for the events in Rev.6-19 because they have not happened yet. Your allegorical method of interpretation only leads to serious biblical error.

Darby wasn't around when the Muslims destroyed the WTC towers.
He hasn't been around since that time when currently our nation has made many agreements, pacts, etc., not only with Israel, but with many other nations. So your point is entirely moot.
You don't address scripture. You don't even address those points that arise out of scripture and are relevant today.

The Great Tribulation is described in much detail in Revelation 6 to 19.
None of those things have happened yet. But they will.
If you can point back into history where there was a hail storm with each hailstone weighing the approximate weight of one hundred pounds, then maybe we will have a starting point. But since you refuse to even look at these events in the light of history and would rather spiritualize it all we have no common ground.

 

Just keep quoting falsehoods OR. Why you do it I don't know.
Read this link. I know you haven't.
http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/dispensation.htm

There were many before Darby and Scofield that believed in dispensationalism.
It started out as Chiliasm, that the ECF commonly believed.
Many scholars throughout the centuries have believed in it.
But if you don't do your homework, and just rant on whatever someone else has spoonfed you, then you are unteachable.

 

How many times do I have to repeat myself OR? Here it is again: