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Featured Who Has Part in The First Resurrection?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Apr 27, 2014.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    . . . or a Pauline belief:

    [Col 2:11-12 KJV] 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No, not even if your Paul.
    Paul did not teach mysticism. Paul used words that have meaning.
    Thayer's definition of the Greek word for "resurrection"
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Satan is the god of this world.
    But Christ is in heaven, not on this physical earth. Obviously he is not ruling his creation. As pointed out previously, his creation are some of the most dangerous disease-carrying animals to have ever existed, killing millions every year (mosquitoes for example). When he comes to set up his Kingdom, all nature will live in harmony (according to Isaiah 11), but that has not happened yet.
     
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The definition you posted supports the things I've said. We won't change each others' minds, so I'm done here.
     
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Some on this Forum apparently do not understand Spiritual Resurrection. Well Nicodemus didn't either!

    John 3:1-10
    1. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
    2. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
    3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    9. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
    10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


    Poor Nicodemus, a master of Israel, and could not understand that the soul of man was dead in sin and a rebirth, a regeneration, a spiritual resurrection was necessary. Our Lord Jesus Christ had to chasten Nicodemus a little asking him: Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    We next read of this spiritual rebirth in John 5:25: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Jesus Christ was not talking about a physical resurrection but a spiritual rebirth, a spiritual resurrection. Then there is that passage from Ephesians.

    Ephesians 2:1-10
    1.And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
    4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
    5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
    6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
    7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
    8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
    9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
    10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


    The above Scripture show that which is dead, the soul or spirit, is brought to life never to die again; that is a resurrection.
     
  6. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Help me out.

    When is one who has been spiritually resurrected, resurrected and please be more specific than when he is born again?

    If the wages of sin is spiritual death, exactly when did Christ spiritually die for us and exactly when and how was he spiritually resurrected in order that we could be made alive in him?



    3:6 τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τῆς σαρκὸς σάρξ ἐστιν καὶ τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τοῦ πνεύματος πνεῦμά ἐστιν

    That which is born of the flesh, flesh is and that which is born of the spirit, spirit is.

    Two questions. What does, is, mean. Maybe I should ask Bill.
    Can a living soul be both flesh and spirit at the same time?
     
    #86 percho, Apr 30, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2014
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Spiritual resurrection is the the same as being born again.

    Jesus Christ did not die a spiritual death. Scripture tells us:

    Hebrews 10:5-10
    5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
    6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
    8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
    9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
    10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.




    You lost me here!
     
  8. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    Clear? Yes. But I disagree.

    God is sovereign over all creation. As you said he "permits evil" it doesn't mean that evil is in control. Jesus reigns this earth from heaven. I'm not saying it is a totally revealed reign, I believe it is currently veiled and will brought in fullness during the millennium. But he still reigns!

    As Salzer said, "the world" is a term often used to describe the wickedness of the system and people that are in rebellion against God, not necessarily the planet. So for Satan to be the god of the world, doesn't mean he is sovereign over this planet, but he has a measure of authority (still under God's total authority though) which he exercises over the ungodly system in rebellion against the creator.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Spiritual resurrection is the same as being born again...yet you hold to man being created separated from God. Inconsistent. If resurrection is raising those once alive up from the dead to life again either he cannot be created in the womb not having life or there was life at one point which was lost.

    Yet another flaw of Augustinianism.
     
  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    All were alive once in Adam. In Adam, all died.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So we were all alive spiritually prior to existing?
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Quick and to the point!:thumbsup:
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    1Co 15:20-23
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    The topic here is not salvation. It is a literal physical resurrection.
    It starts with the resurrection of Jesus who is the firstfruits of them that died. He was the first who ever rose from the dead (and stayed risen).

    Then in vs. 21, Paul clarifies that the subject is still the physical resurrection lest any man misunderstand what he is about to say in verse 22:

    "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive."
    Context: physical resurrection.
    First: In Adam all die. The entire human race was plunged into sin because of Adam's sin. We all have a sin nature.
    In Christ shall all be made alive--Only those "in Christ"--those that are believers, will be raised, a physical resurrection or made alive when the time comes. This is not speaking of salvation, but of our resurrection to come.

    Still carrying on in the same context of the physical resurrection:
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    --Every person will be resurrected, not twice, but once. There is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection. We all will have one physical resurrection. And there is a definite order to that resurrection.
    Look at the emphasis:
    1. Christ the firstfruits.
    2. Afterwards, they that are alive at his coming. This has not taken place yet. It occurs at the rapture according to 1Thes.4:17,18. There the phrase "dead in Christ" is used, as well as "we that are alive in Christ."
    3. The he will come in judgment. That will be at the end of the seven year Tribulation. During that time there will be those who have been martyred for their faith.
    4. Then at the end of the Millennial Kingdom the Unjust will arise and face the Great White Throne Judgment. This is the resurrection of the Unsaved.

    There is order. Paul goes on to explain what happens at the time of the resurrection, our resurrection, our resurrected bodies. There is only one resurrection per person; not two. There is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection.
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    James P. Boyce was one of the Founders of the First Southern Baptist Seminary, initially located at Greenville, SC and later moved to Louisville, Ky. Following are Boyce’s Interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6 in which he states the First Resurrection of Revelation 20:6 is the spiritual resurrection of the soul from death to life.

    The information is excerpted from Boyce's Abstracts of Systematic Theology, page 458ff.

     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    A bad premise to start with. We know it accords with the rest of Scripture.

    Blatantly false! Paul denies this in 1Corinthians 15. There is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection. Only the J.W.'s teach this. They deny the resurrection of Jesus saying he had a "spiritual resurrection." How is that, and what is that? It doesn't exist. There is no such thing if you think it through. It is just mysticism.
     
  16. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    No. Not as you're imagining it. But only living things can die. And if we died in Adam, then we were alive in Him.

    Now we live again in the Second Adam.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The hope of every believer is the second coming of Christ, the rapture, at which time we will receive our glorified bodies.

    Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    --This is our hope. It is the next thing to happen on God's timetable. We look for his coming. It is our blessed hope. It is not a coming in judgment but a blessed and glorious coming. It is for our comfort.

    1Th 4:16-18
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
    --Verse 18: We are to comfort one another with the hope of his coming for he is coming for the believer. He is coming for the dead in Christ, those who have died in Christ before us, and those who are alive at the time of his coming.

    1Jn 3:2-3
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    --When he comes we receive our resurrection bodies. This is the first resurrection. We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. What glorious thought!! We shall be like him! At that time (just before the Tribulation), we shall be like him. We will be glorified.
    As in Titus 2:13, this is our hope. Keeping our eyes on his coming helps us to live a pure life.

    Mat 24:36-42
    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    --Take heed to these words of Christ.
    First before he comes our world will be like it was in the days of Noah: eating, drinking and given in marriage--in other words very sinful. What else was it like? It was sinful enough that the Lord said:
    "My Spirit shall not always strive with man." There is coming a day of judgment, a day when the Holy Spirit will withdraw himself, and God will pour out his judgement on this earth.

    And then warning at the end, in verse 42--Watch! You don't know when this coming will be. It speaks of the rapture. No one knows when the rapture will be.

    What will the rapture be like?

    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Two pilots will be flying a plane; one will be taken, and the other left.
    One couple will be driving in a car; one will be taken, and the other left.
    Two men will be working together at a construction site; one will be taken, the other left.
    Two women working in an office; one will be taken, the other left.
    In an evangelical church perhaps 80% taken and 20% left.

    Some refer to it as a "secret rapture."
    Not so! With maybe more than one million believers worldwide, how will this be a secret?? There will be nothing secret about. It very well could be catastrophic depending on the effect Christians at that time will be having on the world.

    OTOH, Jesus did say: "When I come will I find faith on the earth?" Did he mean 'faith' as in few Christians, or 'faith' as in the Christians that were, are weak Christians. I am not certain.
    Look around. China is a fast growing nation. Its "Christian" population is quickly growing. There are also many others in third world nations that are coming to Christ due to persecution. There are many new believers in many nations.
    Just some things to think about.
     
  18. prophet

    prophet Active Member
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    You skipped the timetable, in Matthew 24, so I'll help out, cuz I'm a good guy like that.

    Mat 24:29-31
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    It was an answer to this prayer:

    Mat 24:3
    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


    Praise God for answered prayer!!!

    I pray that God opens the eyes of the deceived.
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus Christ heard that Lazarus was sick He tarried, saying:

    John 11:4-6
    4 This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
    5. Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
    6. When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.


    Jesus Christ tarried so that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

    How was Jesus Christ to be glorified since we read: Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already. {John 11:17}

    Lazarus had been dead for four days, yet we read the following conversation between Martha and Jesus Christ.

    John 11:21-27
    21. Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
    22. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
    23. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
    24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    26. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
    27. She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.


    Our Savior tells Martha: Thy brother shall rise again.
    Yet Lazarus was dead and had been for four days. Martha makes the appropriate response: I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. The resurrection at the last day? Poor Martha she predated John Nelson Darby by about 1800 years and had not yet learned about the Rapture.

    We now read what Jesus Christ tells Martha: I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    Lazarus is dead. In fact later when Jesus Christ asks that the stone at the grave of Lazarus be moved Martha tells our Savior: Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

    So what does Jesus Christ mean when He says: whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Lazarus was dead, though Jesus Christ would bring Lazarus to life Lazarus would die again. Therefore, Jesus Christ was not talking about the physical body when He said: whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

    He was talking about the soul, the spirit, of man. Now we know from Scripture that that the soul, or the spirit, of mankind is dead to the things of God because of the rebellion of Adam. Jesus Christ Himself tells us: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.[John 3:3] The master of Israel asks, perhaps a logical question for some: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? {John 3:4}

    But Jesus Christ was not talking about a rebirth of the body since He tells us: Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Jesus Christ was speaking of the rebirth of the spirit of man, what Baptists and Evangelicals like to caLL "Born Again"!

    This rebirth from spiritual death, this regeneration as the theologians call it, is the spiritual resurrection that Boyce speaks of above and which I discussed in an earlier post. This rebirth can legitimately be called a spiritual resurrection because it lasts throughout eternity just as does the bodily resurrection of the Saints at the "last day"!

    Repeating what I have posted before:

    Ephesians 2:1-10
    1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
    4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
    5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
    6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
    7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
    8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
    9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
    10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


    Notice what God through the Apostle Paul tells us in verses 4 & 5: But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved). We were spiritually dead, separated from God, and God made us spiritually alive.

    And to eliminate confusion God tells us: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. {1 Corinthians 2:14}

    Now it is a fact of Scripture that those God saves He raises those who were dead in your trespasses and sins to spiritual life. But this body, this natural man will die and go to the grave. Again God in His Grace tells us:

    1 Corinthians 15:42-44
    42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


    Now it is the body of man that goes into the grave. The spirit/soul of the saved goes to be with God in heaven. I would simply note finally that in 1 Corinthians 15 the Apostle is talking about the resurrection of the body of mankind, not the rebirth of the spirit of mankind. Same in Ephesians 2:4, 5. And of course Jesus Christ Himself is speaking of the rebirth of the spirit of mankind in John 3:3ff.
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    A wonderful picture of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ at the end of time, or the end of the world, as mortals know it.
     
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