Who is driving the bus?

Please, Michelle, again, prove your assertions. Just because you say it is so, doesn't make it so. Your accusations against the MV's is unfounded. Remember, the KJV translators didn't even hold to the position you hold to.

AVL1984

 

I am struggling with whether or not this thread was intended to be serious, or just to "stir the pot."

 

If you have to ask C4K, then you should know. And I thought that was against the rules.

AVL1984

 

I think this thread is very borderline as far as the rules go.

If if does not go downhill from here I am going to let it run until page 5, where it will be closed without further warning.

 

So God had to wait 1600 years before He got the right king to "authorize" the right Bible? Wow, what about all those poor people before King James? They had to go without the only true word of God!

Also, you are implying those who do not agree with you are not following God. That's a pretty serious accusation. I hope you think you can defend that before God. </font>[/QUOTE]Marcia, why would you assume I would have to defend my view before God? </font>[/QUOTE]I'm speaking of you defending your accusation of brothers and sisters in Christ in the statement you made above, "Great, you do what you want, I'm going to follow God." In that statement following what you say about the KJV, you clearly are stating that those who do not use the KJV or who do not see it the way you do, are not following God. You are making a serious accusation against Christians. Are you comfortable defending that accusation before God?

 

You quoted:

</font>[/QUOTE]I agree with Michelle. She refers the "confusion" to the Scripture saying, "God is not author of confusion."

Michelle quoted:

You quoted:

Michelle does NOT talk about the KJVO, but talk about MVs. Why do you favor "unity" rather than division?

 

Fallacies of Logic:

Appeal to the popular - the hearer is urged to accept a position because a majority of people hold to it.

Example: The majority of people like soda. Therefore, soda is good.

Example: Everyone else is doing it. Why shouldn't you?

Appeal to tradition - trying to get someone to accept something because it has been done or believed for a long time.

Example: This is the way we've always done it. Therefore, it is the right way.

Example: The Catholic church's tradition demonstrates that this doctrine is true.

Begging the Question - Assuming the thing to be true that you are trying to prove. It is circular.

Example: God exists because the Bible says so. The Bible is inspired. Therefore, we know that God exists.

Example: I am a good worker because Frank says so. How can we trust Frank? Simple. I will vouch for him.

Cause and Effect - assuming that the effect is related to a cause because the events occur together.

Example: When the rooster crows, the sun rises. Therefore, the rooster causes the sun to rise.
Example: When the fuel light goes on in my car, I soon run out of gas. Therefore, the fuel light causes my car to run out of gas.

Hmmm, When will KJVO's start using logical argumentation? I can see at least two of the above fallacies at work in this thread, beginning with the first post.

First: Cause and effect: Because two thing occur together, then one "must" have caused the other or be related.

Second: Circular Reasoning, e.g. begging the question. It simply assumes the truth of the assertion and argues the premise.

Now, I state, once again, that logic exists as a necessary concomitant of God's existence. This has been the consistent teaching of our faith, and is the reason that we use logic in our reasoning process. God, being a God of perfect logic, could not and would not use non-logical means to support an assertion. If we use non-logical means to support our beliefs, then either our logic is faulty or our beliefs are incorrect. Either way, we show our reasoning process to be ungodly.

I have NEVER, I repeat NEVER, seen KJVO's of the extreme kind use logic to support their assertions. They "have it on the highest authority," but they have to beg the question in order to prove that position. If you have to do that, and begging the question is the only way you can ultimately support your position, then that shows that you do not have it on the highest authority, because the highest authority could not and would not beg the question.

Again, either revisit your reasoning process or revisit your assertions. If the issue is the sovereignty of God, which none of us say is unbiblical and all of us, I hope, believe, then the same line of thought can be applied to MV's as well, so the question of preservation and superintendence and the assertions that drive those doctrines apply to both, not just the KJV. To assert otherwise is to be inconsistent, because you have to say God superintends some things, but not all. Furthermore, you end up with a God Who's will is being thwarted at many points in the translation process and the preservation process so many times that it robs the sovereignty of God of any power as a doctrine of our faith, which is clearly, no matter how Calvinist or Arminian you can get, NOT something that is biblical. In other words, you have to embrace something you seek to deny, in order to prove your point. Again, self-defeating logic is invalid logic, therefore, not correct, and not godly.

To rely on "cause and effect," regarding issues like divisiveness, the great irony is that the divisiveness is only perceived by those with the seige mentality so evident by KJVOists that have to rely on illogical means to support their assertions, and inconsistently at that.

 

Askjo:I agree with Michelle. She refers the "confusion" to the Scripture saying, "God is not author of confusion."

Knowing this, and knowing the confusion was started by the KJVOs, you(and Michelle) should avoid the KJVO myth like the plague. Clearly, it's not from GOD. if it was, it would be supported by SCRIPTURE, and there'd be no confusion.

Michelle quoted:

division
You quoted:

Again, that's a KJVO thing.

Michelle does NOT talk about the KJVO, but talk about MVs. Why do you favor "unity" rather than division?

Because there have been multiple English BVs ever since Tyndale's day. They co-existed for a long time, even with the British Crown trying to suppress all but the AV. The common man still used his fave versions long as they were available, into recent times. Then along came the current KJVO myth, causing today's versional arguments. Clearly, KJVO isn't from GOD.

 

James
"If the Word of God says that God is in control of Kings, then God was in control of King James when he authorized the KJV."
"
Royalty authorizes new Bible translations to this day, remember.

 

Thank you. That's one thing the KJVO doctrine seems to overlook.

AVL1984

 

And also, Mioque & AVL, they forget HENRY VIII authorized...AND FUNDED...the Great Bible of 1539.

Regardless of KJ's char, we know for sure H8 wasn't exactly a paragon of Christian virtue.

 

Because of the vehemence and exclusivity with which you are taking it. You are taking a position that you are the only one who is right. That is simply unbiblical. If you are going to claim that there is only one English Bible for today, then you are going to have to defend it from Scripture.

As an alternative you could adopt the biblical position, while continuing to use and believe the KJV. I myself believe the KJV is a great translation. You can use only one English version without taking the unbiblical position you are taking.

 

So God had to wait 1600 years before He got the right king to "authorize" the right Bible? Wow, what about all those poor people before King James? They had to go without the only true word of God!

Also, you are implying those who do not agree with you are not following God. That's a pretty serious accusation. I hope you think you can defend that before God. </font>[/QUOTE]Marcia, why would you assume I would have to defend my view before God? </font>[/QUOTE]I'm speaking of you defending your accusation of brothers and sisters in Christ in the statement you made above, "Great, you do what you want, I'm going to follow God." In that statement following what you say about the KJV, you clearly are stating that those who do not use the KJV or who do not see it the way you do, are not following God. You are making a serious accusation against Christians. Are you comfortable defending that accusation before God? </font>[/QUOTE]Why will I have to defend that 'accusation' before God? Why should I be any less comfortable in my views than anyone else on this board? No one seems to think they will have to defend their use of multiple bible versions... why would I have to defend my belief in one version? </font>[/QUOTE]Because God speaks through his people, and when so very many of them speak to so very few, no matter who is on the "right" or wrong side of an argument, and they say you need to defend your accusations and assertions, you can take that as a pretty good message that God is calling you to account, James. Scripture says in Romans that we all are going to have to give an account. The MV crowd does a pretty good job of defending their views without resorting to the "if you only understood, you'd understand position," which is just circular (ungodly) logic. Even if you are right, there is no reason to think you have no responsibility to defend your accusations. If anything, you have even more impetus to do so.

 

God doesn't EVER tell us to use "logic". God desires us to have FAITH. I am curious to know from those of you who claim we must use "logic" first in this issue, and that it is ungodly to use Faith, are you freemasons? Just curious. Remember, the serpent told Eve in the garden, that if she ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, she would be as gods. Hmmm...sounds like serpent wisdom to me:

Genesis 1

4. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


I would rather rely upon FAITH in the scriptures, than to rely upon human LOGIC contrary to the scriptures. Hebrews 11.

This is what the Lord says about wisdom:

Proverbs 14

1. Every wise woman buildeth her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands.
2. He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the Lord: but he that is perverse in his ways despiseth him.
3. In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.
4. Where no oxen are, the crib is clean: but much increase is by the strength of the ox.
5. A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.
6. A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.
7. Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.
8. The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way: but the folly of fools is deceit.
9. Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour.
10. The heart knoweth his own bitterness; and a stranger doth not intermeddle with his joy.
11. The house of the wicked shall be overthrown: but the tabernacle of the upright shall flourish.
12. There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
13. Even in laughter the heart is sorrowful; and the end of that mirth is heaviness.
14. The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.
15. The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.
16. A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.
17. He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly: and a man of wicked devices is hated.
18. The simple inherit folly: but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.
19. The evil bow before the good; and the wicked at the gates of the righteous.
20. The poor is hated even of his own neighbour: but the rich hath many friends.
21. He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy is he.
22. Do they not err that devise evil? but mercy and truth shall be to them that devise good.
23. In all labour there is profit: but the talk of the lips tendeth only to penury.
24. The crown of the wise is their riches: but the foolishness of fools is folly.
25. A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.
26. In the fear of the Lord is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.
27. The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
28. In the multitude of people is the king's honour: but in the want of people is the destruction of the prince.
29. He that is slow to wrath is of great understanding: but he that is hasty of spirit exalteth folly.
30. A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones.
31. He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker: but he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor.
32. The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.
33. Wisdom resteth in the heart of him that hath understanding: but that which is in the midst of fools is made known.
34. Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.
35. The king's favour is toward a wise servant: but his wrath is against him that causeth shame.


Isaiah 29

11. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12. And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14. Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16. Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
17. Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?
18. And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19. The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
20. For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
21. That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

1 Corin. 1

19. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29. That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Then Sister Michelle, please, just once give us a Bible reason for your view instead of your reasoning that

"It is not the words or label "King James Bible". It is the scripture/words of God within - from Gensis 1 -Rev.22:21. Once many understand this, you will be able to see the real truth regarding this issue." (Your quote, by the way)

That quote is reasoning, not scripture. Your clipping and copying of vast portions of scripture has nothing to do with answering the simple question.

By what authority do you claim the KJV (any edition) to be the only word of God for English speaking people?

 

James said:

"and I think God is going to be very displeased with a lot of Christians."

I'd agree with that. I wouldn't want to be standing next to one of the those stale fuddy-duddies who spent his/her life placing human tradition before the good of God's people. And by this I'm not saying KJVOs - rather those who made a bible version, an order of worship, a dress code etc MORE IMPORTANT than showing Christ's love. If the bible version thing were so important God would have EXPLICITLY told us so. Sorry.

 

--------------------------------------------------
That quote is reasoning, not scripture. Your clipping and copying of vast portions of scripture has nothing to do with answering the simple question.

--------------------------------------------------

My post had nothing to do with what you are saying. My post was in response to those who claim we must approach this issue with Logic above that of FAITH. Yes, the scriptures I quoted had everything to do with this.

As to my answer in regards of what you quoted I said, also was using the scriptures. In fact, my answer said to look at the scriptures from Genesis 1 - Revelation 22:21 within the label, rather than looking at the label slapped onto them.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Main Entry: log·ic
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English logik, from Middle French logique, from Latin logica, from Greek logikE, from feminine of logikos of reason, from logos: reason
1 a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Isaiah 1
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Faith and logic work together. Every where in Scripture our God appeals to the reason and logic He Himself infused within us. This is the essence of being created in His "image" and "likeness". Logic and the ability to reason sets us apart from the animal world. One of the very title-names of God is the "Logos" which is the root of the English word "logic".

I am not.

Matthew 10:16...be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

HankD

 

It seems to me you do a lot of labelling yourself michelle. The "logic" that you use is not only unscriptural, it is unGodly...UNHOLY. Your posting of long quotes of scripture doesn't prove your point, because the MV users could post the same portions of scripture. You do nothing to prove your points but spout circular reasoning, which is not an answer but just what it has been called...circular reasoning. It doesn't address the questions, nor does it give an honest answer of why you hold the position you hold to. It has nothing to do with "faith" but, with your lack of knowledge on the subject. Though scripture is good, it doesn't address why you came to the conclusions you come to. All it does is show you can cut and paste, which MV users can do just as well. If you haven't studied outside sources (historical sources that prove your point, such as many of the church fathers and other historical figures) it just doesn't cut it. Even Jesus stated historical statements and current events. To just bury your nose in the KJV and say that it IS the only preserved Word of God is not only false, it IS very much unscriptural. The MV's are just as preserved, or they would not be here.

AVL1984