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Featured Who is James trying to persuade?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Jun 13, 2014.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You have one overactive child-like imagination.
     
  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Interestingly, James gives Abraham as an example of how one receives imputed righteousness.

    Abraham believed God...and then what happened? (here is a hint, read James 2:23)
     
  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    James is writing to believers, instructing them not to show partiality/favoritism. That is is what he is saying.
     
  4. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    No, I'm not Calvinist. And I also have a biblical understanding of election, as opposed to either an Arminian or Calvinist view.

    Election has nothing whatsoever to do with being chosen to go to heaven. It has everything to be chosen to receive an inheritance. Not every believer is elect. The elect those who were foreknown as joint-heirs with Christ. It's those believers who pick up their cross and follow Christ, which not every believer will do. The elect were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom 8:29), called to follow Him in suffering (2Peter 2:20-21), and thereby become joint-heirs with Him (Rom 8:17), to be glorified and receive adoption as sons (Ephesians 1:5). See also Hebrews 2:9-11

    It is possible for a believer to have dead faith, but it is not possible for someone who's following Christ to have dead faith. His faith is active, maturing, fruitful. Hardly dead.

    You're right that James gave a hint. But only a hint, because he was not in the context of being credited with righteousness. Notice he says that the scripture was fulfilled which says "Abraham believed God, and was credited with righteousness."

    And what was Abraham believing God for? Genesis 15:1-6:
    1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying,
    “Do not fear, Abram,
    I am a shield to you;
    Your reward shall be very great.”

    2 Abram said, “O Lord God, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”

    3 And Abram said, “Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir.”

    4 Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir.”

    5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

    6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

    Abraham was believing that His REWARD from God would be great. That he would have an HEIR to pass on a possession to, and many descendants after that.


    James is saying that this scripture, where Abraham believed God concerning a REWARD, was fulfilled when Abraham was willing to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. See James 2:21:

    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

    Then Hebrews 11:17-19:

    By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

    18 it was he to whom it was said, “In Isaac your descendants shall be called.”

    19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

    This act of offering Isaac happened 30-40 years after he was credited with righteousness


    And while you're in Hebrews 11, take a look at verse 1:

    Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.

    And compare this to Romans 4:21-22

    21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

    22 Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness.


    Stay in Hebrews 11, and take a look at verse 6:

    And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.


    Every verse in James 2:12-3:1 is being cast from the perspective of a believer's coming rewards judgment
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Ah, the lop-sided blinders of 'sola fide', Cal & non-Cal alike. So, this is all you're drawing from this text, a rebuke of 'respect of persons', for real?

    A mere ten verses deeper into the text:

    Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2:24

    Contrast:

    ….the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13

    With (an entire chapter deeper into the text!):

    by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified… Ro 3:20

    Sola fides (Cal & non-Cal alike) really need to ponder on that contrast given by Paul in Romans just a few mere verses apart.


    :thumbsup:

    Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? Ja 2:21

    By faith Abraham, being tried, offered up Isaac: yea, he that had gladly received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; Heb 11:17

    There is no such thing as having that 'deep conviction' that God is, and that He is a rewarder of those that seek Him, and it not be shown/manifested IN DEED, IN ACTION:

    ....the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Hab 2:5 YLT

    ....who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2:6,7

    Not many make that connection between faith and action. James sums it up nicely:

    Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself. Ja 2:17
     
    #25 kyredneck, Jun 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2014
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    The first thing that should be debated is what does James mean by 'save'. Seems to me 'saved' is synonymous with 'justified' in this text.

    [add]

    1 My brethren, hold not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
    2 For if there come into your synagogue a man with a gold ring, in fine clothing, and there come in also a poor man in vile clothing;

    Would also be helpful to know if by 'My brethren' is James addressing fellow Jews, or brothers in Christ?
     
    #26 kyredneck, Jun 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2014
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Good works are a product of one already being saved, NOT part of salvation itself!
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Adressing jews who had received jesus as the jewish messiah!
    Messianhic congregations!
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Instead of just running that mouth, provide some scripture for once, just once. It's hard for me to believe he knew he was addressing only the saints considering some of the things he says to them in this epistle.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ANY NT book written towards the unsaved primarily?

    And james saw them as his fellow jews, who had believed in Yeshua as the messiah!
     
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