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Featured Who is responsible?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Jan 14, 2022.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It is generally agreed in all Biblical views that man is responsible for his sin and therefore responsible for his perishing. Revelation 20:11-15.

    Unconditional election man is not really responsible, nor can he really be.
    But with unmerited election man is responsible.
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Ok, please explain the difference between unconditional election and unmerited election?

    peace to you
     
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  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Not certain your terms are correct, but I think you are attempting to present that under the typical view of non - Arminian folks, the lost cannot be held responsible.

    There are those who might take that thinking as an excuse not to agree to the opposing view.

    But it is inaccurate and the premise if faulty.

    The thinking is faulty because it presents that somehow folks are not given a choice. This is contrary to John 1 where the Scriptures state that light is given to every person. It is also contrary to Romans 1 where the law is written on every persons heart, and God is demonstrated by the natural world order and bodies.

    John 1 states that folks reject the light, and Romans 1 declares humans refuse and are rebellious toward the law.

    The inaccuracy of the premise resides in the problem concerning the human capabilities.

    When one rebels against God, and turns from the light, they do not retain innocence, nor do they remain unshackled.

    Rather, the Scriptures present the person as a slave, bound and unable to be unbound by their will, their toil, or their heritage.

    Therefore, when God declares one for Himself, He redeems that person from the slave market and removes them from ever being sold into slavery again. Not only does He redeem them, He repurposes and re-clothes them. And because that is not enough, God then adopts that person as His own child.

    All are condemned already, sold into slavery, and able to choose only what this life and world has to offer.

    Only God, of His good pleasure and mercy will choose to Himself those of His purpose.

    In our Western culture of ease and pleasures, this may seem unfair, but look upon those who suffer greatly because of the claim God has on them. Great is their reward! And those of us who live without rebuke, how shameful we will be in their presence.

    God never redeems one to pleasure, but to purpose. Does this world offer any friendliness to a believer, then either they are not a believer, or they are not living with purpose.
     
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes. As he continues to turn from scripture in other areas, all his theology will slide down.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    * Unconditional there are no conditons the elect must meet. God alone is responsible for non-elect perishing.
    * Unmerited is a condition that the elect must meet. There is a condition in which the non-elect are resposible for their perishing. Matthew 7:21. Their election is a matter of being received as solely a gift.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The simple truth is Biblically man is resonsible.
    So there is a condition man must meet, Matthew 7:21.
    To claim uncoditional election is to disallow man being held responsible for perishing.
     
  7. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Man is responsible for his sins regardless what you aver. What unconditional election teaches is that out of all of Adam’s fallen posterity, the elect were no different than the non-elect. There was nothing special in them that was missing in the non-elect, neither were the non-elect more wicked than the elect, thereby causing God to choose the elect over the non-elect. Every condition that needed met in regards to salvation was met by Christ via His sinless life, His brutal beatings and death, His burial, and subsequent resurrection and ascension to the Father. No other condition(s) need to be met.
     
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  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    1 Corinthians 12:3
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Biblically man is responsible even thought man is conceived condemned because of the fall.
    The notion of unconditional election makes God solely responsible that any perish.
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    ". . . Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. . . ." Explain: How does this truth justify the damnable notion of unconditional election?
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 7:21, ". . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. . . ." Here is an existent condition of doing God's will. I understand this to be that salvation can only be recieved as a gift. Ephesians 2:8.
     
  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Well, imputation teaches that whatever is imputed to someone, whether it be Adam’s guilt or Christ’s righteousness, God treats them as if they were the one(s) who did it.

    When Adam fell, all his posterity fell, being in Adam. His guilt was imputed to them and God deals with them accordingly. This was solely the doing of one man, Adam. And Paul makes that ascertain when he stated, Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠—[Romans 5:12]. Through not fault, or doing, of our own, we were conceived sinners, conceived dead in Adam, deserving of hell. It is only via God’s grace that any of us our saved.

    Adam is responsible for causing us to be conceived dead in Adam, but we are all responsible for whatever sins we commit.
     
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  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    You posted Matthew 7:21. 1 Corinthians 12:3 says no one can call Jesus Lord except by the Spirit.
     
  14. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Errrmmm, you’re teaching works. No one can do the will of the Father while being devoid of the Holy Spirit. Unless the Spirit first quickens them, they cannot do the Father’s will. No one does the will of the Father and then receive the Holy Spirit. That’s the very definition of works.
     
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  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.[Romans 5:8]

    The lost are in the flesh and cannot please God. Why? They are devoid of faith, and faith pleases Him, per Hebrews 11:6.

    The only reason why the elect are saved is not because they met a certain condition, or conditions, but because God showed them grace, love, and mercy.
     
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 5:13-14, ". . . (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, . . ."
    Romans 3:19, ". . . Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. . . ."
    Biblical truth is not at fault.
    The election is unmerited, which is not denied.
    But the notion of this being unconditional is extra Biblical.
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Accusing me of teaching works is a false accusation. Is it not God's will that what man must do is receive salvation as a gift which is not a work? Ephesians 2:8-9.
     
  18. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    So, if sin is not imputed when there is no law, why were the antediluvian ppl destroyed? #RiddleMeThis
     
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  19. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Your view of receiving the gift and my view are polar opposites. Your view, if I’m understanding it correctly, is God holds out the gift of eternal life, yet only those who reach out and take it are saved. That’s works. If we have to do ANYTHING to be saved, then it is the cross PLUS what we did, that caused us to be saved.

    Eternal life is being born again unilaterally by the working of the Holy Spirit. Being born again is what causes one to exercise faith and repentance and being saved. All of this, being born again and exercising faith and repentance happen simultaneously.
     
    #19 SovereignGrace, Jan 15, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
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  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    This ^^^^^^^

    I notice the OP has not understood this ^^^^^^^
     
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