Who is Satan in this passage?

I agree Bob this can most definately be the case, and think in the vast majority it is.

I was merely showing that according to scripture Satan 'can' still go unto the Mount of God and be before the Lord if so permitted.

 

Isa 2:3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

As long as you are in the flesh satan is there also.


Mic 4:2And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

 

I don't think a sinner can go to the 3rd Heaven where God is. I think we are on the mountain of the Lord now, climbing upward. I think the Law has aready went forth from zion and the word of the lord from Jerusalem. I think a person can stand before God and not physically be in Heaven where God is. I don't know if that is what you all are discussing or not. Nothing unclean has ever been there or ever will.

 

True you did not specifically state that but there was no other conclusion with regard to your statement. I know that God will always at some point remove and judge sin but in your construct of They did a sin and was cast out does not hold biblical verasity. Do you not think that Able sinned being a man born with a sin nature?? Or Seth, or Noah...?? They All sinned before God so why did God not cast them ALL away from Himself?? God is everywhere at ALL times James, how can a person sin when God ISN"T around. Now if you are speaking of being there in manifested presense then you have a problem as God was not 'around' when Adam and Eve sinned, nor was He there when Cain slew Able in the field. Sin is Sin is Sin before God. And yes there is a pattern as it is God placing certain judgments on certain people but not on ALL that sinned only certain ones for certain and specific reasons


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You know I believe God hates sin so your posting those verses was pointless. I was only conveying a simple and common truth. What about those cities who were just as sinful both then and times future, but we do not find God casting fire down upon all of them, why not?? God hates sin right??. Places like Rome for instance or Grease, America, Canada, Iran, or L.A., Washingto DC, Amsterdam, Berlin, ext... God judges sin without question but His Judgment is not always immediate nor is it always at once but spaced out till that final judgment. And yet God still deals with sinful man.

You still haven't established anything TO consider. If you have answered your the Question in the OP I must have missed it and would appreciate your kindness in re-posting it and the scriptural support that establishes your contention.

Ok, but you stated God can't be in the presence of sin, yet Lucifer was one of the Covering Angels at the Throne so that establishes him in the 3rd Heaven where he sinned before he was cast out. This was what I was trying to say

He will...and He Did. You place to much on the word will. Christ says...been there done that. Satan has been (past) cast from Heaven. Christ told us he saw it happen. Why? Well as it turns out God hates sin..and Satan sinned.
Ok, that is fine...but when in the past as Ezekiel states it is in a time future AND at THAT time it is done Satan will be cast down a vanquished enemy before the kings of the earth (Isa 12 and Ezk 34) That casting out could not have happened yet as this has never been done but will be done at the coming of Christ as these are prophesies regarding that event. But I am curious as to when you believe it happened...

Ok, I see here your point on this with the elect, but the other part I was bring up is that you also contend God uses and controls the sinner as well as the saint. I was wondering how God can use and control them too, since God hates sin and sin can't be in Gods presense. - I think that was what I was wanting to know...

Yes you did show the word used in two other passages but they never were discribing a person but and action. The passage you state for Job say even in the Youngs Translation "...there doth come also "THE" Adversary..." denoting him being the 'one and only' (THE) Adversary and not 'an' or 'another'. Note the Capitilization of the word "Adversary" as is done with Personal pronouns. I just have seen no proof for you that it can possibly be someone or thing else is all.

God is Holy because God can not and will not sin not because of where He dwells. Sin WAS in heaven as that is where Lucifer sinned and I showed the scriptural suppor for this from Eze 34. And yes the Devil could or even can (IMO and established this fact with scripture) go into the 3rd Heaven and if God permits the 'g'ods to come then they will according to His commands.
I have yet to see you bring forth scripture that refutes it other than God is Holy to which I do not dispute. But if God is soveriegn He can permit what ever is His pleasure or purpose or plan, agreed??

Still waiting on you to show your 'set rules' scripturally. Till then it is still just postulation and assumption.

It is fine to 'think' it could be, or maybe, quite possibly... but I also showed where scripture tends to bring both the Angels (stars of the morning) and ALL the Son's of God... Together. Maybe this will be of Note. The Angels are refered to as Stars and particularly in Job a group of stars sang [star of the morning] Now Satan was also called the "son" of the morning in Isa 14. Is it not and odd instance that He is both equated with the terms 'Stars' and 'Sons' just as Job bring them together as well.

SIde bar concerning this:
And is Jesus not called in Rev The Bright and Morning Star. Now we know Jesus is not an Angel but this discription is concerning the Bright, exhaulted Majesty of His Glory. However it is hard to just lightly dismiss an interesting note here of Satan called the Son of the Morning and was a covering Angel of the Throne, and that specific group of Angels in Job called the Morning Stars - could these be a group of angels specifically centered on or around Christ Jesus on His Eternal Throne? (that is just a thought)

 

It is the very verses you are about to quote...

He cried out because God knows all things an in that knowing all He does is Just even if we don't know why it is happening. But Job was not right either for we see this in verse 9

Remember (vs 8) they were to go to Job and sacrifice rams and have Job pray for them that they might be accepted of the Lord due to their sin... and in verse 9 we see Job ALSO is accepted. We see Job finally begin to break in Ch 29-31 but more specifically in 30 and 31.

Actually, when I re-read it I couldn't think of any good reason for to be there in all honesty. Sorry about that. Maybe I was thinking of something else there but I can't recall for what purpose I placed it there.

 

True, but I wasn't giving an exhaustive listing either.

 

Puff Cake sounds good right about now, I'm hungry!!
Anyhoo, that is ok as it doesn't matter really because it is not an important matter to actually have to substantiate... That said - However ... :laugh: Just kidding!

I do understand what you are getting at conserning the Sons of God and that though they ARE Angelic beings by nature they are NOT specifically identified as to what type or catagory or if it is a reference of the them as a whole. (I think the whole personally but that is due to 'one' specific verse - there are few times in scripture we should hang our hat on one verse)

I still think Satan is Satan there in Job however but that issue really is like step 8 on the 10 step ladder of importance concerning the Book of Job as it is more about God and Job.

 

bene haelohim (Ge 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1) refers to men.
bene elohim (Job 38:7; Ps 29:1; 89:7 [89:6 English Bible]) refers to angels.

In Job some of God's children, probably including Job himself, present themselves before God. Of course this is done on earth, just as Samuel much later commanded the people to do, i.e., present themselves before the Lord (1 Sam 10:9). Satan going out from the presence of the Lord (Job 1:12; 2:7) doesn't place him in heaven any more than does Cain going out from the presence of the Lord (Ge 4:16). In fact, of all the occurrances of "Satan" in the Hebrew Bible (Job 1:6, 7, 7, 8, 9, 12, 12; 2:1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7; Zc 3:1, 2, 2; and 1 Ch 21:1), I can find none that indicates he has access to the throne of God where angels are guarding him and crying 'Holy, holy, holy" 24/7. OT biblical references rather place Satan on earth, going to and fro, walking up and down in it, tempting the doodoo out of David, whatever. That said, extrabiblical references tell quite another story.

 

Interesting opinion, Please state any extrabiblical references that have been cite ANYWHERE within this thread... Didn't think so.

I never stated Satan HAD to be in Heaven but that scripture does not preclude this but does give references to that potential. Go back and re-read my postings.

I always have to laugh when people cite the four Angels are "gaurding" the Almighty and All Powerful God. As if God must be protected. They are there to PROCLAIM His Holiness not protect it, for how can you protect what you can not maintian???

 

Yes, I am a Dispensationalist. In the Age of Conscience is wasn't hard to say what sin was. God said that Adam and Eve both knew what good and evil was "like" God did. If they brought their children up in the admonition of the Lord they would HAVE to teach their children right from wrong because their children would be born doing that which IS wrong according to their 'sin nature'. I also agree that God was trying to stop Cain from going 'into' sin as that is where he was heading.

You are correct that there is no 'scriptural' explict references regarding God giving revelation to man. But we do see it somewhat implictly. Take Cain and Able and God speaking with Cain. First, how did they know to offer anything and if anything was offered how will they know what is pleasing?
I thing Adam and Eve might have filled them in but I think God had a hand still is speaking with Man from time to time then just as He had a sit down chat with Cain. Yes the earth was full of evil and man choose to live their own way, so we know they understood a different way was there too. God saw that Noah feared the Lord and we see that God called Noah Righteous for this. He also preached Gods judgment to come on them but what good would that do if they believe what they are doing is the 'right' way. Being decendents of Adam not far removed they all knew about God and obviously what He wanted but didn't care.
The son's of God in Gen just before the flood I would agree are men without question and have stated such.

Did Able sin? Scripture state for ALL have sinned and fall short... this would seem to include Able, even Enoch (and Elijah) who were take up into heaven (which heaven... Maybe space on a planet somewhere or maybe with God)

Nope.

Well, David stated that IF he go to hell God is there too. We can't keep the devil from anyplace much less heaven. But God can do as He pleases and this includes allowing whomever He commands to appear before him that they must come.

No question but being soveriegn it also allows Him to call it before Him just as in the Great White Throne Judgment.

Satan was the Father of Evil not because he sinned first but because he tempt the angels and Man to sin, but I see what you are saying...
The contention is noted and I would agree anyone CAN be AN Advasariy with regard to it being a person much like Peter. My only problem it the scripture states it is 'The' Advisary with regard to not only a person but a person to whom the name is known to belong. There are others such as Rev and such but I do agree that even though we may Yes, Satan or No - we do know it was an angelic being. I guess it could be said like this James -
How do you know the Difference between The Spirit in scripture and the generalizations such as the spirit (angel) or the spirit (mans spirit) in scripture???

Your not wrong, I posted the wrong Chapter. It is actually Ezk 2814-16), 17-19 but as I stated it refers to the full casting down of Satan in the future (I will) where he will be seen by the kings of the earth and vanquished eternally (Rev 20) The other is in Rev where he is BEFORE THE LORD accusing the brethren. Now both don't necessarly mean Satan IS before God but it does not preclude this either. That is the statement I am making. I have yet to find any scriptures that say God can not have sin in His presence or in Heaven. We find in Rev 12 a great war IN Heaven that Satan started and it is where Satan is cast down AGAIN from Heaven.

Yes but Cain was never in Heaven. Where does it state you can't go back if God commands your presense. This is why I stated it deosn't necessitate that Satan IS in heaven but via those verses it does not preclude that Satan doesn't. It is more an argument from the vague and some from silence. Niether are something I would preach dogmatically.

What I was wanting to see is your "set rules" that does preclude Satan from Heaven. I have no problem with change if it can be substantiated, but if it is just as vague as mine I see no need many times.

Well in relation to the 7 spirits of the seven churches could either be man or actual Angels or both. I hold specifically to the view they are the Pastors of the Churches but some would argue in that age there wasn't One Pastor (Elder) but many. I was just tossing it out for your thoughts as a side bar...

 

I do not dispute that Job knows all things are ordained by God. But Job also accuses God of Judging him of a sin he knows nothing about and that God's judgment has made Job an enemy of God and even persecuted by God. The problem is that Job in defending himself places his own foot in his mouth. Job didn't know what was happening much less WHY it was happening.

Gods answering are basically establishing to Job that in his finite knowledge who was he to critisize his Creator. Being that his understanding was so limited he was not qualified to judge the do and don't of God as he does not know all that God DOES know and therefore WHY He does or allows them.

This is why the first time Job opens his mouth after Gods intial rebuke he states he will put his hand over his mouth and not say another word. If he was so innocent in his speach why does God even have to rebuke him??? We see Job repenting in 43:1-6 for speaking of things he knew nothing about nor did he understand.

It isn't so much about "I'm God, shut up and obey" Your view.
God is saying IMO "I am God and you were wrong in your assumed Judgment of Me. Lets see who is qualified to be God or be the Judge OF God... Ummm...looks like you don't measure up. God does even finish (we can assume) when Job confess all of this and that he assume what he does not know or understand. Job repents (which is why God stated the whole conversation in the first place) Then He turns His attention to Jobs friends so that THEY would repent as well. My View

The difference is a soveriegn God who demands obedience
vs
a soveriegn and loving God who desire a relationship in which obedience is willing given.

I never said Job stated Satan did it.. ???

Yes, Job said God did it...and since Job stated that Job was innocent of any sins he could think of...What did that make God??
God didn't have to for once He dealt with where Job first faultered the rest Job knew was false because he had falsly ASSUMED.
God shows in His rebukes/refutes over and over that what He does is for a purpose and is known only to Himself. And because God knows WHY something is done He has the right to do it or allow it. God did NONE of those things TO Job but allowed Satan (the Advisary) the do it to him to show that Job would never turn his back on God, and Job didn't. He just began complain much later than I would have started.

The book is about both God and Job like I previously stated. I could almost swear Jobs name is there somewhere :winksmilegrin: