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Who is the 12th apostle?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by natters, Apr 15, 2005.

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  1. natters

    natters New Member

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    In refering to the New Jerusalem, scripture says:

    Rev 21:14 "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

    Eleven of the twelve are obvious. But who is the 12th? Judas, Paul, or Matthias?
     
    #1 natters, Apr 15, 2005
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Matthias.

    In the Gospels the Twelve are called, well, "The Twelve."

    After the death of Judas they are called "The Eleven." (Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14; Luke 24:9)

    Then in Acts 1:26 Matthias is numbered with "The Eleven."

    In Acts 2:14 Peter stands up with "The Eleven." Eleven + Peter = Twelve.

    And, in Acts 6:2 we see that "The Twelve" called the multitude of disciples together.

    "The Twelve" here had to include Matthias for Paul did not get saved until Acts 9.

    I believe, when we get to heaven, and see the City and the names on the foundation we will see the name of Matthias but not Paul. And I don't think Paul will mind one little bit. [​IMG]
     
    #2 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2005
  3. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Apostles, not disciples. [​IMG] It may not be the 11 one would assume.
     
    #3 dianetavegia, Apr 15, 2005
  4. jacob62

    jacob62 Guest

    [Snipped: non-baptist posting in Baptist-only areas.]

    [ April 15, 2005, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
     
    #4 jacob62, Apr 15, 2005
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Matthew 10:2-4 "Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him."
     
    #5 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2005
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Because that is what He wanted to do, and He is God so He gets to do whatever He wants to do. [​IMG]
     
    #6 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2005
  7. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Ro 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God

    1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

    1Co 9:1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?

    1Co 9:2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

    1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

    2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

    2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

    Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),

    Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

    Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

    1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,

    2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

    2Ti 1:11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

    Tit 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with


    1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.


    Mt 18:4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

    Ya just never know......
     
    #7 dianetavegia, Apr 15, 2005
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    If you had read my initial post you would know. Just because the bible refers to a man as "apostle" does not make him one of the Twelve. That is patently self-evident from the fact the bible calls 17 men "apostles."

    In case you are a student of the "new math" let me just add 17=12 is just wrong. [​IMG]
     
    #8 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2005
  9. jacob62

    jacob62 Guest

    [Snipped: Non-baptist posting]

    [ April 15, 2005, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
     
    #9 jacob62, Apr 15, 2005
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Uh, Peter was never called "the head of the church." That is Roman Catholic doctrine. This is the "Baptist Only" section of the Baptist Board.
    There are no apostles today in the sense of men such as The Twelve or ever Paul, for that matter, who gave us the inscripturated word of God. We don't need them for we have the completed bible. All that Peter and Paul taught can be found in the bible.
    Jesus promised there would not be a great falling away. He said the gates of hell will not prevail against His church. If any man claims there has been a great falling away and he has been raised up by God to be an Apostle of the last days, run, don't walk, run to the nearest exit. That man is a liar and a charlatan!
    As Christians, indwelt and empowered by the Holy Spirit of God, we exercise the gifts God has given us to discern who God wants to serve in the pastoral office. If that man fails in his moral life then it is not only the right but the duty of the church to remove him from that office.
     
    #10 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2005
  11. jacob62

    jacob62 Guest

    [Snipped: non-baptist posting]

    [ April 15, 2005, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
     
    #11 jacob62, Apr 15, 2005
  12. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    This is a Baptist-only forum and I would remind members that posting is limited to Baptists.

    Thank you for your consideration.

    rsr
     
    #12 rsr, Apr 15, 2005
  13. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

    Certainly we should test the spirit of each preacher, teacher and layperson who calls themselves a worker for the Lord. If it doesn't match up with scripture.... RUN!

    1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
     
    #13 dianetavegia, Apr 15, 2005
  14. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Just my simple thoughts on the matter.

    Paul is surely identified as an Apostle.

    Regarding Matthias; other than his choosing, (Acts 1:23,26) there are no other references to him in the NT.

    It may be that when the disciples choose Matthias, they were forcing the issue of who would fill the role Judas vacated.

    The disciples/apostles choose Matthias:
    God choose Paul.

    Scripture is inspired, not the actions of the apostles.
    God did not impart infallibility upon them.
    They could make mistakes.

    Rob
     
    #14 Deacon, Apr 15, 2005
  15. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    How did the disciples select Matthias?

    Ats 1:24 And they prayed, and said, "Lord, the One knowing the inward hearts of all men, YOU show which one of these two YOU have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

    Acts 1:26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

    Either God chose Matt (and thus ends the story) or the 11 were totally deceived and playing a game.

    You know which I believe.
     
    #15 Dr. Bob, Apr 15, 2005
  16. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Acts would favor Matthias, as would the fact that he had followed Jesus during His incarnation.

    However, I find trying to identify the 12th apostle with certainty about as profitable as reconciling the list of the 12 tribes in Revelation 7 with the Old Testament accountings.
     
    #16 rsr, Apr 15, 2005
  17. WallyGator

    WallyGator New Member

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    rsr,
    I'm inclined to agree with you. I'm glad that this topice is being discussed because it has been something I've wondered about for a long time. Thanks,
    WallyGator
     
    #17 WallyGator, Apr 15, 2005
  18. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    It's Matthias.

    Read the entirety of Acts 1. There are several things that stand out as evidence of this.

    </font>
    • The eleven and many others, including many women were meeting in the upper room for prayer.</font>
    • Peter spoke to about 120 of them about Judas' desmise and the fulfillment of scripture, therefore the NEED for a replacement.</font>
    • Peter outlined the proper credentials for a replacement...(1) must have been a follower of Jesus since the time of Jesus' baptism by John and (2)a witness of His resurrected body.</font>
    • They sought, as a body of believers, God's face on this matter and cast lots.</font>

    It couldn't be Judas...he was the son of perdition.

    It couldn't be Paul...he didn't know Jesus from the beginning. He was AN apostle because he met Jesus "face to face", but he wasn't THE 12th apostle because he didn't meet the credentials that Peter outlined here.

    Peace-
    Scarlett O.
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
    #18 Scarlett O., Apr 16, 2005
  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    As T.Cassidy said, Paul was chosen LATER. However, there's no doubt he was an apostle, and that JESUS often spoke to him. Matthias was one of those who'd actually walked with Jesus almost from the gitgo, and therefore was chosen to replace Judas in "The Twelve".

    Jesus had never placed any number limit on how many apostles He could appoint, but I believe He stayed with an elite twelve ORIGINAL apostles from those who, unlike Paul, directly witnessed much of His ministry. This is NOT to take from Paul's appointment as a full apostle. He would NOT have called himself an apostle had not JESUS called him an apostle.
     
    #19 robycop3, Apr 16, 2005
  20. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Do you think, then, that He also appeared to Judas (Iscariot)?...
    I Corinthians 15:5-- "and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve."
    Clearly, Judas was no longer 'one of them,'-- possibly he was already dead-- but this was weeks before Matthias was among the twelve.
     
    #20 Alcott, Apr 16, 2005
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