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Who is the "living bread which came down from heaven"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JoeT, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. JoeT

    JoeT Member

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    Pneuma is a Greek word most always translated spirit, it’s meaning however is more an inner force that reaches and units us to God. Catholics are one pneuma with the Lord (1 Corinthians 6:17). And, as in John 6:64 and in Paul’s Galatians 3 we receive this power from God, you might say as a quickening. Sarx refers to the flesh or the physical body of a person. Thus, in john 6:64 we see it is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh (sarx) profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life

    Again, pneuma (the inner force) is moved toward God. Continuing Christ said it does nothing for the sarx, i.e., the physical body; and how can it? The words He speaks, say Christ are pneuma (about the inner force), the inner force that binds us to life, i.e. God.

    Let’s be even clearer still, soma is a Greek word for body as well, however it is the whole person, more literally, ‘the thing that is self’ or person. In Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25 we hear Christ say this is my Body; soma, “the thing that is His Person”. To be a person requires body, soul, intellect, and will. Actually he is saying “toútó estin tó sómá mou”, (this is my body) which means this is His Person; Body, Soul, Blood and Divinity, the whole or the essence of what Jesus Christ is.

    My person is not a symbol, pinch me and I protest (for clarification: the pain is protested, not the Church). One commandment is given by Christ, either partake of the Real Presence in Christ (His Person) else you do not have life in you [John 6:54]. Conversely, “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day." [John 6:55]. Whereas, eating symbols does nothing but put excess weight on the sarx.

    JoeT
     
    #1 JoeT, Nov 16, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    This is not an accurate statement, therefore everything that follows is built on a foundation of sand.

    Pneuma:
    STRONGS NT 4151: πνεῦμα
    πνεῦμα, πνεύματος, τό (πνέω), Greek writings from Aeschylus and Herodotusdown; Hebrew רוּחַ, Latin spiritus; i. e.:

    1. a movement of air (gentle) blast;
    • a. of the wind: ἀνέμων πνεύματα, Herodotus 7, 16, 1; Pausanias, 5, 25; hence, the wind itself, John 3:8; plural Hebrews 1:7 (1 Kings 18:45; 1 Kings 19:11; Job 1:19; Psalm 103:4 (Psalms 104:4), etc.; often in Greek writings).
    • b. breath of the nostrils or mouth, often in Greek writings from Aeschylus down: πνεῦμα τοῦ στόματος, 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (Psalm 32:6 (Ps. 33:6), cf. Isaiah 11:4); πνεῦμα ζωῆς, the breath of life, Revelation 11:11 (Genesis 6:17, cf. πνοή ζωῆς, Genesis 2:7). (πνεῦμα and πνοή seem to have been in the main coincident terms; but πνοή became the more poetic. Both retain a suggestion of their evident etymology. Even in classical Greek πνεῦμα became as frequent and as wide in its application as ἄνεμος. (Schmidt, chapter 55, 7; Trench, § lxxiii.))
     
  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    2. the spirit, i. e. the vital principle by which the body is animated ((Aristotle, Polybius, Plutarch, others; see below)): Luke 8:55; Luke 23:46; John 19:30; Acts 7:59; Revelation 13:15 (here R. V. breath); ἀφιέναι τό πνεῦμα, to breathe out the spirit, to expire, Matthew 27:50 cf. Sir. 38:23; Wis. 16:14 (Greek writings said ἀφιέναι τήν ψυχήν, as Genesis 35:18, see ἀφίημι, 1 b. and Kypke, Observations, i, p. 140; but we also find ἀφιέναι πνεῦμα θανσίμω σφαγή, Euripides, Hec. 571); σῶμα χωρίς πνεύματος νεκρόν ἐστιν, James 2:26; τό πνεῦμα ἐστι τό ζοωποιουν, ἡ σάρξ οὐκ ὠφελεῖ οὐδέν, the spirit is that which animates and gives life, the body is of no profit (for the spirit imparts life to it, not the body in turn to the spirit; cf. Chr. Frid. Fritzsche, Nova opuscc., p. 239), John 6:63. the rational spirit, the power by which a human being feels, thinks, wills, decides; the soul: τό πνεῦμα τοῦ ἀνθρώπου τό ἐν αὐτῷ, 1 Corinthians 2:11; opposed to σάρξ (which see (especially 2 a.)), Matthew 26:41; Mark 14:38; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Colossians 2:5; opposed to τό σῶμα, Romans 8:10; 1 Corinthians 6:17, 20 Rec.; 1 Corinthians 7:34; 1 Peter 4:6. Although for the most part the words πνεῦμα and ψυχή are used indiscriminately and so σῶμα and ψυχήput in contrast (but never by Paul; see ψυχή, especially 2), there is also recognized a threefold distinction, τό πνεῦμα καί ἡ ψυχή καί τό σῶμα, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, according to which τό πνεῦμα is the rational part of man, the power of perceiving and grasping divine and eternal things, and upon which the Spirit of God exerts its influence; (πνεῦμα, says Luther, "is the highest and noblest part of man, which qualifies him to lay bold of incomprehensible, invisible, eternal things; in short, it is the house where Faith and God's word are at home" (see references at end)): ἄχρι μερισμοῦ ψυχῆς καί πνεύματος (see μερισμός, 2), Hebrews 4:12; ἐν ἑνί πνεύματι, μία ψυχή, Philippians 1:27 (where instead of μία ψυχή Paul according to his mode of speaking elsewhere would have said more appropriately μία καρδία). τό πνεῦμα τίνος, Mark 2:8; Mark 8:12; Luke 1:47; Acts 17:16; Romans 1:9; Romans 8:16; 1 Corinthians 5:4; 1 Corinthians 16:18; 2 Corinthians 2:13; 2 Corinthians 7:13; Galatians 6:18; (Philippians 4:23 L T Tr WH); Philemon 1:25; 2 Timothy 4:22; ὁ Θεός τῶν πνευμάτων (for which Rec. has ἁγίων) τῶν προφητῶν, who incites and directs the souls of the prophets, Revelation 22:6, where cf. Düsterdieck. the dative τῷ πνεύματι is used to denote the seat (locality) where one does or suffers something, like our in spirit: ἐπιγινώσκειν, Mark 2:8; ἀναστενάζειν, Mark 8:12; ἐμβρίμασθαι, John 11:33; ταράσσεσθαι, John 13:21; ζηιν, Acts 18:25; Romans 12:11; ἀγαλλίασθαι, Luke 10:21 (but L T Tr WH here add ἁγίῳ); the dative of respect: 1 Corinthians 5:3; Colossians 2:5; 1 Peter 4:6; κραταιουσθαι, Luke 1:80; Luke 2:40 Rec.; ἅγιον εἶναι, 1 Corinthians 7:34; ζοωποιηθεις, 1 Peter 3:18; ζῆν, 1 Peter 4:6; πτωχοί, Matthew 5:3; dative of instrument: δεδεμένος, Acts 20:22; συνέχεσθαι, Acts 18:5 Rec.; Θεῷ λατρεύειν, Philippians 3:3 R G; dative of advantage: ἄνεσιν τῷ πνεύματι μου, 2 Corinthians 2:13 (12); ἐν τῷ πνεύματι, is used of the instrument, 1 Corinthians 6:20 Rec. (it is surely better to take ἐν τῷ πνεύματι here locally, of the 'sphere' (Winer's Grammar, 386 (362), cf. 1 Corinthians 6:19)); also ἐν πνεύματι, nearly equivalent to πνευματικῶς (but see Winer's Grammar, § 51, 1 e. note), John 4:23; of the seat of an action, ἐν τῷ πνεύματι μου, Romans 1:9; τιθέναι ἐν τῷ πνεύματι, to propose to oneself, purpose in spirit, followed by the infinitive (πορεύεσθαι, Acts 19:21. πνεύματα προφητῶν, according to the context the souls (spirits) of the prophets moved by the Spirit of God, 1 Corinthians 14:32; in a peculiar sense πνεῦμα is used of a soul thoroughly roused by the Holy Spirit and wholly intent on divine things, yet destitute of distinct self-consciousness and clear understanding; thus in the phrases τό πνεῦμα μου προσεύχεται, opposed to ὁ νοῦς μου, 1 Corinthians 14:14; πνεύματι λαλεῖν μυστήρια, 1 Corinthians 14:2; προσεύχεσθαι, ψάλλειν, εὐλογεῖν, τῷ πνεύματι, as opposed to τῷ νοι, 1 Corinthians 14:15, 16.
     
  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    3. a spirit, i. e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting;
     
  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    4. The Scriptures also ascribe a πνεῦμα to God, i. e. God's power and agency — distinguishable in thought (or modalistice, as they say in technical speech) from God's essence in itself considered — manifest in the course of affairs, and by its influence upon souls productive in the theocratic body (the church) of all the higher spiritual gifts and blessings; (cf. the resemblances and differences in Philo's use of τό θεῖον πνεῦμα, e. g. de gigant. § 12 (cf. § 5f); quis rer. div. § 53; de mund. opif. § 46, etc.).

    5. universally, the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of anyone; the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.: τῷ αὐτῷ πνεύματι περιεπατήσαμεν, 2 Corinthians 12:18; ἐν πνεύματι ἡλίου, in the same spirit with which Elijah was filled of old, Luke 1:17; τά ῤήματα... πνεῦμα ἐστιν, exhale a spirit (and fill believers with it), John 6:63; οἵου πνεύματος ἐστε ὑμεῖς(what manner of spirit ye are of) viz. a divine spirit, that I have imparted unto you, Luke 9:55 (Rec.; (cf. B. § 132, 11 I.; Winer's Grammar, § 30, 5)); τῷ πνεύματι, ᾧ ἐλάλει, Acts 6:10, where see Meyer; πραυ καί ἡσύχιον πνεῦμα, 1 Peter 3:4; πνεῦμα πρᾳότητος, such as belongs to the meek, 1 Corinthians 4:21; Galatians 6:1; τό πνεῦμα τῆς προφητείας, such as characterizes prophecy and by which the prophets are governed, Revelation 19:10; τῆς ἀληθείας, σοφίας καί ἀποκαλύψεως, see above, p. 521b middle (Isaiah 11:2; Deuteronomy 34:9; Wis. 7:7); τῆς πίστεως, 2 Corinthians 4:13; τῆς υἱοθεσίας, such as belongs to sons, Romans 8:15; τῆς ζωῆς ἐν Χριστῷ, of the life which one gets in fellowship with Christ, ibid. 2; δυνάμεως καί ἀγάπης καί σωφρονισμοῦ, 2 Timothy 1:7; ἕν πνεῦμα εἶναι with Christ, equivalent to to be filled with the same spirit as Christ and by the bond of that spirit to be intimately united to Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:17; ἐν ἑνί πνεύματι, by the reception of one Spirit's efficency, 1 Corinthians 12:13; εἰς ἕν πνεῦμα, so as to be united into one body filled with one Spirit, ibid. R G; ἕν πνεῦμα ποτίζεσθαι (made to drink of i. e.) imbued with one Spirit, ibid. L T Tr WH (see ποτίζω); ἕν σῶμα καί ἐν πνεῦμα, one (social) body filled and animated by one spirit, Ephesians 4:4; — in all these passages although the language is general, yet it is clear from the context that the writer means a spirit begotten of the Holy Spirit or even identical with that Spirit ((cf. Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 46, 6 [ET]; Hermas, sim. 9, 13, 18 [ET]; Ignatius ad Magn. 7 [ET])). In opposition to the divine Spirit stand, τό πνεῦμα τό ἐνεργουν ἐν τοῖς υἱοῖς τῆς ἀπειθείας (a spirit) that comes from the devil), Ephesians 2:2; also τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου, the spirit that actuates the unholy multitude, 1 Corinthians 2:12; δουλείας, such as characterizes and governs slaves, Romans 8:15; κατανύξεως, Romans 11:8; δειλίας, 2 Timothy 1:7; τῆς πλάνης, 1 John 4:6 (πλανήσεως, Isaiah 19:14; πορνείας, Hosea 4:12; Hosea 5:4); τό τοῦ ἀντιχρίστου namely, πνεῦμα, 1 John 4:3; ἕτερον πνεῦμα λαμβάνειν, i. e. different from the Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 11:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ νως, the governing spirit of the mind, Ephesians 4:23. Cf. Ackermann, Beiträge zur theol. Würdigung u. Abwägung der Begriffe πνεῦμα, νοῦς, u. Geist, in the Theol. Studien und Kritiken for 1839, p. 873ff; Büchsenschütz, La doctrine de l'Esprit de Dieu selon l'aneien et nouveau testament. Strasb. 1840; Chr. From Fritzsche, De Spiritu Sancto commentatio exegetica et dogmatica, 4 Pts. Hal. 1840f, included in his Nova opuscula academica (Turici, 1846), p. 233ff; Kahnis, Die Lehre v. hiel. Geist. Part i. (Halle, 1847); an anonymous publication (by Prince Ludwig Solms Lich, entitled) Die biblische Bedeutung des Wortes Geist. (Giessen, 1862); H. H. Wendt, Die Begriffe Fleisch u. Geist im Biblical Sprachgebrauch. (Gotha, 1878); (Cremer, in Herzogedition 2, under the phrase, Geist des Menschen; G. L. Hahn, Theol. d. N. Test. i. § 149ff; J. Laidlaw, The Bible Doctrine of Man. (Cunningham Lects., 7th Series, 1880); Dickson, St. Paul's use of the terms Flesh and Spirit. (Glasgow, 1883); and references in B. D. (especially Amos edition) and Dict. of Christ. Biog., as above, 4 a. at the end.)
     
  6. JoeT

    JoeT Member

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    Isn't usually proper to credit the author? Are you the very old man JOSEPH HENRY THAYER?
    Did you know that you proved every word I wrote?

    JoeT
     
  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Quote nature of post was self-evident.

    No, however the fact that you had no trouble identifying the source supports my first point.

    The meaning that you ascribed as universal enough to be beyond question is only one of several possible meanings for the word. That was my complaint and it DOES NOT prove every word that you wrote.
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    What saves us is spiritual union with the risen Christ, by faith alone placed unto Him to save us due to His finished work on the Cross, and not being cannibals eating his flesh and drinking His blood.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. JoeT

    JoeT Member

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    Then you would agree that to abide in Christ is paramount in our salvation, right? Can you get close to God through symbols, do symbols abide in men? And if not then what should we make of Christ's words ; "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him." [John 6:57]? I suggest not only do we abide in Him, but there is a synergistic relationship whereby He too abides in US. Amen?

    JoeT
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus abides by the Holy Spirit in me, and not thru any wafer or wine!
     
  11. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    PLAGIARISM!!! my grandson would be tossed out of college for doing what you've done!

    If I were to cut & paste page after page of Catholic apologetics sites material would you not report it to the moderator?
     
    #11 Walter, Nov 18, 2019
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  12. JoeT

    JoeT Member

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    Is Jesus and the Holy Spirit the same Person? Christ said, if you eat my flesh and drink my blood you abide in him and likewise He abides in you [Cf. John 6:57].

    One abides in Christ by eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ says Christ. How do you eat the flesh of a spirit and drink the blood of a spirit? What kind of spirits do you have on that side of the screen?

    JoeT
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is in Heaven right now, as the High Priest by the Father, so the Holy Spirit is the One Person of the Trinity in us and now with us, correct?
     
  14. JoeT

    JoeT Member

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    .

    So we are going to be risen from the dead without our flesh? Christ was risen in the flesh, not as a supernatural being. So too are we to be risen like Christ, in the flesh. Consequently Christ's flesh, which is part of his Person-hood, is in heaven and being omnipresent it too is wherever Christ is. Secondly the verse didn't say the Holy Spirit will abide in you, the verse said Christ will abide in you. You might recall, Jesus used the personal pronoun "I". Did Christ get that mixed up too - did he mean His symbol will abide? How does a symbol abide?

    JoeT
     
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Did you honestly think that I wrote a Lexicon rather that quoted a Lexicon without bothering to identify it as Thayer’s Lexicon that I had quoted?

    Fear not, it will not happen again. First it was a pain to break it up into small enough pieces to fit in a post. Second, I have learned that Catholics do not believe in Lexicons, so the effort was wasted.

    PS. I doubt that any college expels students for posting on the internet without proper attribution of quoted material.
     
  16. JoeT

    JoeT Member

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    What college students do is not always Christian. To represent someone else's work is dishonest and unchristian in two ways. First, the respondent is arguing for or against another person's work other than the person he thinks he's responding to. Secondly, without giving credit to the person who did the work you are essentially stealing - your taking someone's ideas as your own.

    JoeT
     
  17. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    Amen! Bread represents sustenance. That which is essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance (bread of life) necessary for spiritual life.

    John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
    John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.

    "He who believes in Me" is equivalent to "he who eats this bread will live forever." The end result in both cases is receiving eternal life. Jesus is the Bread of Life and we eat of Him and are satisfied when we believe in Him unto salvation.

    Jesus sums it up in John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." :)
     
  18. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    The idea something in spirit equates to symbolic is western pagan in origin.

    In Christianity what is spiritual will be more real if anything. Its not a secondary or lesser version.
     
  19. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    The animals sacrificed on the alter under the Law of Moses were SYMBOLIC of the one true sacrifice of the “Lamb of God” (Jesus Christ). As a symbol of the True Sacrifice, the blood of bulls and rams did not erase the sin of men ... it merely pointed to the REAL SACRIFICE that did have the power to save men.

    In the same way, the wafer and wine are not God and the sprinkling / pouring / immersion in water is not the Holy Spirit ... it is a SYMBOL that points to the greater REALITY.

    No one that I know views symbolism in the God breathed ordinances (like Baptism and Communion) as “secondary or lesser”. That is a strawman since neither Catholics nor Protestants view it that way. The issue is Catholics link the Spiritual and Physical, while Baptists view the physical as symbolic and the Spiritual as real and of first importance.

    The key to a Baptist is not the “wafer” but Jesus Christ himself, on the cross, in the grave and ascended into heaven; not the “sprinkling of water”, but the transformation by the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church places a higher premium on “baptizin’ dem babbies” and the “Real Physical Presence of Christ in the weekly wafer”.
     
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