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Featured Whose Son is YHVH, the Christ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Seve, Aug 15, 2012.

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  1. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Dear Readers,

    There's no question or argument with regards to the plurality of God... collective one (echad) that is. The fact of the matter is, the poster above could not even respond directly to most of my posts but have the audacity to claim victory to his flawed religious view. Here's some of the posts that he continue to ignore.... and could not refute.... Others to follow.

    How do you understand “collective one”? No doubt about it, Moses was correct in his usage of ECHAD by applying it to TWO BEINGS becoming one. But our poster above is introducing a new usage of the term "echad" by applying it to only ONE BEING.

    “Collective one” is not applied to the distinctions WITHIN one entity. You may draw ONE circle with three distinct colors WITHIN but that can hardly be called “collective one” because the entity (ie., circle) remains one. You can only apply “collective one” to two or more separate and distinct entities.

    :BangHead:
     
    #81 Seve, Aug 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2012
  2. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    No Seve, I have dealt with that exact verse. You pull that verse out of its natural context, and let us take it step by step in the context of that passage. The passage starts out as a discourse to the Church of Philadelphia (in Turkey by the way not Pennsylvania just in case you get the wrong referrence)
    Then the writer shows who is addressing that church
    By use of the term "key of David" is a referrence to the Kingdom of God foretold by Daniel and the Kingdom Promised to be built upon the Heir of David. Then the passage goes on to say about the relationship between the Church of Philadelphia (Turkey not Pennsylvania) and the promised Kingdom of God
    That the person who knows what is going on in Philedelphia (Turkey not Pennsylvania) and who closes and shuts to door to the Kingdom of God a referrence to the ability to exclude or include people into that Kingdom knows that they have not only Kept that Persons word (that person who is addressing the church there is Jesus) but haven't denied his name. Next he encourages this church that the Jews don't determine who is part of the promised Davidic Kingdom or the Kingdom of God because though they are biologically Jews they aren't really Jews in heart
    And then he goes on to say that he himself (Jesus) will keep them faithful through coming persecution because they have kept his word
    He further encourages them by saying he is coming soon so they should remain faithful to him
    Then he says not only am I coming soon but those who remain steadfast and do not give up on him in their persecution he will make an irrevocable member of his kingdom and will use them to establish his true temple or church
    Then to ensure them of this irrevocability he will write the name of God on him so that it shows to whom those people belong, namely God
    and that he will write the name of where they belong
    and his own personal new name
    note he doesn't say I will reveal a hidden name but provide his personal new name which as I've said in context with the rest of the bible God obtains for himself new names as he reveals himself. So when Jesus provides marks his faithful people form the Church of Philadelphia making them irrevocable members of his Kingdom and pillars of his Temple he will be provided a new title/name as they experientially come to understand him in that role. So, Seve I have dealt with your verse and shown you how you have misinterpret it to believe there are two Gods becoming one and that the Holy Spirit is some sort of force like on star wars.

    All of your questions were answered in the above post. However, I will answer your questons below and provide scripture for my answer.

    I've answered this in the above statments. However, it is clear Jesus is addressing the church in Philadelphia (Turkey not Pennsylvania).

    One of the things I dispise are people who think combining modern english and Elizabethan English makes them pious. It doesn't just makes them look silly. Like when Pentecostals when they supposedly "interpret speaking in tongues" will begin with "Thus saith the Lord" then quote psalms. Its just sillyness. Why can't you just say "Who's the speaker referring to...as his God, if YOU can tell?" replacing "you" with "thou" doesn't give you any more credibility and I find it irritating. Its like being condicended to. However, to answer your question Jesus is refering to the Father of whom he said
    The Greek rendering of are is ἐσμέν which directly translated means "we are". Thus the passage literally reads "I and the Father we are one". If Jesus had meant that they had become one he would have used the Greek word ὁμοιόω
    . So compare with what Isaiah 45:5 says
    God could not say if he had joined with other gods that "besides me there is no God.

    It is clear that the Father to whom the speaker refers is not another god but the singular god whom Jesus is one with. Did you not read the scriptures where it says
    The pharisees could not understand how a decendent of David could be the God who created David and Jesus shows that David under inspiration of the Holy Spirit attest to his decendent being his lord. And in thse similar fashion you have the difficulty believing in the Trinity and have made for yourself multiple gods becoming one But just as unlikely as David's decendent being David's God it seems unlikely that Jesus and the father are one not become one however this is exactly what Jesus attest to. There has only ever been one God as scriptures have shown and that God is a trinity and though it may be inexplicable to you scriptures attest to that fact.

    again I dont refute scriptures I refute your interpretation of them. Lets look at that passage in context with the scripture.
    Several things I want you to note in this passage
    Jesus speaking to the Father, whom he is one with by the way not seperate from him - john 10, expressing that the time for Jesus sacrifice is come however by that sacrifice God will be glorified as both the son and the father. Next note
    Note what Jesus says "only true God" according to you that would make Jesus not God at all because it is clear there is only one true God and since Jesus is communicating with God he is seperate from God. Ah.. but you are faulted because Jesus makes it clear he is connected to God and one with God and isn't become one with God as I've shown you from John 10. So Jesus is communicating with the "one true" God whom he is one with ie the person of that trinity the Father. Finally he says
    by saying and Jesus Christ whom God has sent isn't seperating Christ from the trinity but expressing his particular role as messiah Jesus is incarnate! And this incarnation joins God to humanity that humanity might be saved (for those who believe) by Jesus sacrifice on the Cross in that Jesus died for all of us. Still this does not indicate a seperation of God the Father from Jesus Christ but rather the role of the 2nd person of the trinity as savior but it is the same God who saves us not another god. Thus we don't have multiple gods becoming one. He have one God who has three persons.
     
    #82 Thinkingstuff, Aug 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2012
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

    The same Hebrew term "ECHAD" and it does not mean ONE COLLECTIVELY here as they had but ONE father IN NUMBER and therefore ONE God in number.

    "I and the Father are ONE" - Jn. 10:30

    The term for "one" is neuter not masculine. numerically One IN NATURE - the same divine essence.
     
    #83 The Biblicist, Aug 17, 2012
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Are you saying there are TWO seperate Gods, one greater/ than the other One?

    or that jesus is tha father/Son/Spirit himself?

    or that God was the father, than was the Son, now is the Spirit?
     
    #84 Yeshua1, Aug 17, 2012
  5. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Dear Readers,

    No man has seen God the Invisible Spirit of Love, at anytime…. but Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who were with the LORD God in the fiery furnace (ref. Book of Daniel), will tell you they saw our Lord YHVH, the Son of God…. for He is the Only Begotten Image of the Invisible Spirit of God. His Image is that of a man Glorified, whose Glory is Brighter than the Noonday Sun.

    In Fact even king Nebuchadnezzar was also astonished and confused himself… seeing what he belief to be the sudden appearance of the Son of God in the burning furnace and saving the three men without hurt….

    Read and learn….

    Daniel 3:23
    And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. v24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, [and] spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. v25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

    Now, the question that all of you have to ponder is ….. How king Nebuchadnezzar could have known the appearance or look-a-like of the Son of God in the Old Testament… IF ALL of you believe that the Son of God ONLY existed and had physical body during New Testament upon incarnation???

    :godisgood:
     
    #85 Seve, Aug 18, 2012
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  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are building a straw man and then burning it. No one is denying that the Second Person of the "Godhead" has manifested himself in various forms in the Old Testament prior to the incarnation. However, the name "YHVH" is clearly the name for all THREE Persons of the "Godhead" and not just the Father. Isaiah 44:6 proves that is given to TWO different Person's in the Godhead. Isaiah 44:6 correctly provides the true meaning of Isaiah 43:10 as merely a denial there is no other God but YHVH period!
     
    #86 The Biblicist, Aug 18, 2012
  7. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Dear Readers,

    Please be aware that our apologists here would NOT be able to use Scripture effectively to support their flawed religious views against me .... guaranteed.... I promise..... They can only based their wild imagination on their own traditional religious view or private interpretation... which is not supported by the Scripture.

    Obviously, our apologizers are not dealing with the issues head on... or directly. How many times will they avoid and divert your attention from the real issue is beyond me.... By doing so....they must be under estemating the audience' reading comprehesion, are they not? .... Oh well...... Rest assure that I will not do that to you!

    In fact below are few more Scriptures to prove that the Son -- who already physically existed in the OT -- ONLY became the God of the whole earth, after his resurrection.... thou Lord in the beginning.... even though, the Son, was only serving as God to the Jews in the beginning and not to the gentiles.

    Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

    Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. v9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God , hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. v10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: v11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;


    :godisgood:
     
    #87 Seve, Aug 19, 2012
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  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    It is you that has not dealt with the scriptures I have provided "head on"! You have ignored Isaiah 43:6,8 in its direct relationship with Isa. 43:10. You have ignored scriptures that prove your view of "one" is not correct. You have ignored nearly all our arguments. You have simply built straw man arguments and attributed wrongly to us and then hypocritically burnt them.
     
    #88 The Biblicist, Aug 19, 2012
  9. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Hello Moriah,

    My humbe apology for missing these previous queries by you. I will be more than to study the word of God with you so long as we respect each other position even when we disagree. Of course, I don't see much problem with that.... Having said that, the honor is mine.

    Of course. As I have posted before, the Son was first brought forth (begotten) into our physical world from the invisible real of the Father when God spoke the “WORD” in the in the beginning and said… “LET THERE BE LIGHT”…. Genesis 1:3 was the first complete word spoken by God as documented in the Scripture. He (YHVH) was later sent into our world AGAIN and made flesh... to save us from our sins... and became known as Jesus Christ.


    . The Father is God (in heaven)
    + Jesus is God (on Jordan River)
    + The HS is God (descending on Jesus)

    Obviously, it shows that they are separate Divine Entities from each other. The Father is in Heaven speaking, the Son was coming up out of the Jordan River. And John said that he saw the Holy Spirit come down from heaven and remain on Jesus.

    Besides, if they are not separate entities, how can the Son say to the Father, "Why have you forsaken me?" Again, only those who play blind will downplay the fact that Jesus and the Father are separate Divine Beings.

    Ok, let's look at the actual Scripture

    Acts 7:55 But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, v56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    I will say it again....I believe.... No man alive ... even today.... hath seen God at anytime with his own eyes.

    Stephen was having a prophetic vision (like a dream) being filled with Holy Ghost… when he asserted that he saw the heavens opened and the Son standing on the right hand of God….

    However, the fact of the matter that is very clear … The New Testament is very consistent in telling us that the Father and Son are two separate Divine Beings.... united as one God (Elohim) collectively..... as I have cited in most of my posts using the Scriptural Texts as needed.

    God Bless. :godisgood:
     
    #89 Seve, Aug 19, 2012
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  10. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    Thank you for discussing this with me. I believe our beliefs on this is the same; however, I want to confirm that my belief is that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the same.
    How about you, do you say that too?
    It might be an obvious answer, but I try not to ever assume anything.
     
    #90 Moriah, Aug 19, 2012
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do you hold to there being ONE god, within Him are 3 seperate persons, Father/Son/Spirit, ALL 3 equally God?

    NEVER a time when they were not all 3 God, not that they are seperate gods?
     
    #91 Yeshua1, Aug 20, 2012
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    If I understand you correctly you are teaching Tritheism and deny Trinitarianism. That is, you believe that each is a distinct and separate entity, being, Person from the other but collectively they are "God"!

    Is that correct?
     
    #92 The Biblicist, Aug 20, 2012
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    didn't he post though jesus "became' God after the resurrection?

    was he adopted into Godhood?
     
    #93 Yeshua1, Aug 20, 2012
  14. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Hello Moriah,

    I believe in one (echad) God.... compounded one that is.

    While the Son and the Holy Spirit both proceed from the Almighty God, they all became distinct and separate Divine Entities from each other… upon being brought forth into this physical world from the invisible realm of the Father. However, they are all united (compound unity) as one God (Elohim-Plural).

    Here's one of the Biblical basis of my belief.... Insertions are mine for presentation.

    1 John 5:7
    For there are three (numeric) that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three (numeric) are one (collectively)

    :godisgood:
     
    #94 Seve, Aug 20, 2012
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    probably NOR even in the actual words penned down by John though!

    is the father a "greater God" than either Son/Spirit?

    was jesus ALWAYS God?
     
    #95 Yeshua1, Aug 20, 2012
  16. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Based on the Scripture..... The invisible Almighty God Father is "greater" than Son and the Holy Spirit.... of whom both proceeded from him.... And I agree.

    John 14
    28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    The Son was only serving as God to the Jews in the beginning.... not to all mankind living on the entire earth.

    :godisgood:
     
    #96 Seve, Aug 20, 2012
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    So you are denying The Second Person in the "Godhead" is co-eternal with the Father and co-equal with the Father in regard to all attributes that make God to be God?? You are asserting that only the Father is the eternal God and both the Son and Holy Spirit are inferior in regard to any ETERNAL attributes that makes God to be God.
     
    #97 The Biblicist, Aug 20, 2012
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  18. Seve

    Seve Member

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    There's no such thing as 3 persons in 1 Being. That's heresy. And you are the one denying the Scrpiture... that you maliciously EDITED in order to suit yout distorted premises.....

    Jesus said..... that his Father is greater than him..... Look an read again....

    The fact is, just like your forefathers, Gentiles do not have God in this world in the beginning....

    Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    :praying:
     
    #98 Seve, Aug 20, 2012
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the Son became the Angel of the Lord in OT, was GOD, and he was in the Burning Bush to Moses, he was YAHWEH...

    the father/jesus/Holy Spirit are EQUALLy GOD...

    God the Son became jesus in the Incarnation, and as such, He willingly allowed Himself to NOT be all knowing while on earth, did not excercise ALL of His divine attributes, living as a Man while among us...

    being 'self limited' at that time did NOT know all things, but since ascended exercising ALL Deity attrubutes fully again!
     
    #99 Yeshua1, Aug 20, 2012
  20. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Yes and No...... As I have posted before, YHVH, because of his physical nature as our Lord God.... even in the Old Testament..... his power was limited compare only to his invisible Father.... who's omnicient and omnipresent.... the Spirit of Love that never change.

    :godisgood:
     
    #100 Seve, Aug 20, 2012
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