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Why Calvinism preaches a fraudulent gospel to some of the lost.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Oct 21, 2021.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Mark 16:15, ". . . Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
    The Calvinist view point of Limited Atonement means for those who never believe the good news it was never really good news because, Limited Atonement means Christ never really died for them that never would believe, and that is why they do not believe.
     
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  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    And yet if you listen to them preach they say that God loves everyone and want those that hear the gospel message to trust in Christ Jesus for salvation. Amazing really, they say no one has a free will yet preach as if they do.
     
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  3. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't make sense if you think today's gospel is the same as the original. The gospel is simply an announcement that whoever believes has eternal life. It never was an offer for the self-righteous to save themselves Billy Graham style.
     
  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    But you will hold to a style that is not even found in the bible. When God says we have to make a choice then I think I will trust that He knows what He means. You should just listen to God, trust the bible and not read into the text to make it fit your Calvinism.
     
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  5. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    Why doesn't God save everybody?



    01:14 God is rich in mercy and he desires to save sinners but he can't just forgive it and pretend those things didn't exist because then he would be unjust and he's not. So his plan from eternity past was to send his son in human flesh to be a representative for you, to take the punishment you deserve to take all of the righteous deeds that he did his entire life credit them to your account if you will repent and put your trust in his son he will forgive you because he makes you perfect in Christ

    Gospel presentation “If you will repent and trust in His son” Freewill plain and simple but this is a presentation by Todd Friel of Wretched {a calvinist} so you see that even calvinists must turn to freewill in order to present the Gospel message.
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Full disclosure, I actually attended church with Todd for few years when I was a free-willer. It was a Christian Missionary Alliance church and the pastor had been saved in a free will pentacostal church while stationed in the navy in San Diego.
    Todd was all about promoting Todd and he wasn't a theologian by any means. He was, before national syndication, a shock jock, and he's still doing his shpeal. I don't take Todd with much more than a pinch of salt. My guess is that Todd slips into the past teachings of that pastor who was a free willer, "seeker sensitive" preacher.
     
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  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    So I would guess that you think Paul Washer is not a good Calvinist either.

     
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Simple question. Does God know everything?

    Does God know who will respond to the gospel with faith in Christ and who will reject? Does God know who will be saved?

    If God knows who will be saved and who will reject, and He does, doesn't that make, in your view, the command to “preach the gospel to every creature”, an insecure offer of salvation?

    In other words, when it comes to the debate over a “sincere offer of salvation” how is your view different from the reformed view that God choses who will be saved?

    If God knows who will reject the gospel offer, isn’t it an insincere offer to command the gospel be preached to everyone?

    peace to you
     
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  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
    Yes and yes.
    Not at all.
    There is a difference. And you can not see it?
    Have you read Romans 10:13-15 and believed it?
    Why make a false offer, just because one knows the said offer being real is known to be rejected?
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The doctrine of universalism such a God would neither be Just nor truly merciful. You see under universalism neither justice or mercy matters.
     
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  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I would guess that you are avoiding theology because you know you have nothing to stand on, so instead you look for people who you can claim are being hypocritical to their views.
    I honestly have never listened to Paul Washer. I do read my Bible, however, and I do see what God says.
    It is obvious you are in over your head when discussing scripture so you look for a different angle to demand that you must be your own ruler. It will be interesting to see you tell God how you used your free will to save yourself.
     
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ad Hominem arguments are not helpful. Either one holds to a belief or one does not. Either a said belief is true or it is not.
    Either Christ died for all (1 Timothy 2:6) or He did not. Either Calvinists teach Christ died only for His elect/chosen or they do not. Either more are offered salvation than Christ died for or Christ did die for them.
     
  13. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    You view the gospel as an "offer". But the word Preach in Greek means to announce. So it is not insincere unless you are an Arminian or an Amyaldrian, in which case, you do not have the original, but a man-made "knock-off" of the gospel based on "free will". The same free will the Reformers attacked in Catholicism.
     
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  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    Don't you mean the same free will the Reformers attacked that is found in scripture? Calvinists try to teach that man does not have a free will because God is sovereign. But that is a rather strange view of sovereign which Calvinists have. They seem incapable of grasping the reality that:

    God is sovereign over his sovereignty.

    To say that God can’t is, ironically, to deny God’s sovereignty.
    God is no less sovereign in a world where he chooses to grant his creatures libertarian freedom than he is in a world where he determines everything.
     
  15. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Those of us reformed can make that exact argument. It is a real offer of salvation that will only be accepted by those God has chosen for salvation.

    Knowing with 100% certainty, the offer will be rejected makes the offer insincere, doesn’t it? That is your view, isn’t it?

    Reformed folks believe only the elect will respond with faith and you accuse them of believing fraudulent doctrine.

    You admit God knows who will accept and who will reject, but somehow that doesn’t amount to preaching a “fraudulent doctrine” to those whom God knows with 100% certainty will reject that gospel.

    The bottom line, you cannot reconcile God’s sovereignty with God’s omniscience when it comes to salvation so you accuse “Calvinists” of “fraudulent doctrine” when the fact is, there is no difference in your view of a “sincere offer”.

    peace to you
     
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  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    No, “Calvinists” teach man has no freewill because of our sin nature.

    Men are saved because God is sovereign.

    peace to you
     
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  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    So if your view of Gods' sovereignty is correct then the only reason that man has a sin nature is because God gave it to them. And the only reason some reject God is because He does not allow them the ability to come to Him and thus be saved.
    You do realize that you are destroying the character of God by your theology.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    ". . . The bottom line, you cannot reconcile God’s sovereignty with God’s omniscience . . . ."
    False.
    Either an offer is genuine or an offer is a fraud. God's general call to all is genuine.
    It is only a fraud if there is not a real redemption for those who the gospel is offered. It is that simple.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That teaching is based on such passages as Romans 6:16, ". . . Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? . . ." But the notion of man having a "free will" is found in the ASV, Philemon 1:14, ". . . but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will. . . ."
     
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The Bible teaches that God is sovereign and in His sovereignty He decided that man will choose to either respond to the gospel and receive it or reject it.

    Let me ask you, do you also accuse the receiver of a birthday gift of being at least partly responsible for giving himself the birthday gift simply because he reached out and took it from the giver and took possession of it?
     
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