Why did God create the Universe - revisited

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Feb 17, 2018.

  1. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Someone asks this question.

    God is "Love" and love requires an object to love other than itself.

    "Whoever would be greatest among you let him be servant of all" - God's love is expressed in selfless service to others.

    Selfless love takes joy in the happiness of others.
     
  2. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    He could not love us in Heaven?
     
  3. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What part of Heaven is not in the universe?
     
  4. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    All of it, We know Heaven exited before creation through Job 38:7
     
  5. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Streets of gold, walls of precious stones, gates of pearl, tree of life, throne of God etc ... all of it in the universe... physical time and space.

    Even Angels are physical as Ezekiel informs us.
     
  6. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Described as physical realities How else could the describe them except what was known

    Jhn 3:12

    If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    Time is temporary
    Rev 10:6
    And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

    The universe will be destroyed it is temporary

    Heaven in spiritual
    Jhn 18:36
    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

    1Co 15:50
    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    1Co 15:51
    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Co 15:52
    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1Co 15:53
    For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.\\

    Heaven is a lot better than this place

    This is a prison to hold and possible redeem the sinner
     
  7. One Baptism Active Member

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    No, not "as", but rather "actually" describing physical realities.

    Jesus, in John 3, is speaking to Nicodemus about the need of being born again, because all mankind upon this world, needs to be born again, to even begin to understand the matters of the Spirit of God, and of the ways of the Kingdom of God. The Carnal mind cannot grasp the things of the Spirit.

    Romans 8:7 KJB - Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

    How then, could the dead mind, understand the living realities that Christ Jesus wanted to demonstrate, unless it was born from above, being born again, by water and the Spirit? It couldn't. The "earthly things" was the need to be born again, for only those upon this earth needed it. Those who remained loyal to God, in the Heavenly, need it not, having never fallen.

    Our carnal minds/hearts, unless born again, would continually dwell upon things of this world, the fallen sinful ways, and could never even for a second have begun to contemplate an heavenly thought, unless sent from above and given from God. Mankind could not ever have come up with the solution for salvation as it is in Christ Jesus, for it is of Heavenly origins, and need to come down from Heaven to enlighten the darkened heart.

    However, the mind/heart of Christ Jesus, was always upon Heavenly things, specifically upon His Father, thus He could say while living upon this fallen world, that He was in Heaven [not physically, but of the mind/heart, He alway dwelt upon the will of the Father and His heart].

    John 3:13 KJB - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.​

    But we now, granted repentance, need to be like Jesus, rather than what we were before life in Christ:

    Ephesians 2:5 KJB - Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    Ephesians 2:6 KJB - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​

    Philippians 3:19 KJB - Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

    Philippians 3:20 KJB - For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:​
    Thus:

    Philippians 2:5 KJB - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:​

    That is a misunderstanding and misuse of that text, for it refers not to time in general, but to the portion of the prophetic time that had been "sealed" in the books of Daniel:

    Daniel 12:4 KJB - But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    Revelation 10:2 KJB - And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,​

    That portion of Daniel's prophecies concering the 2,300 prophecy in Daniel 8:13,14,26, etc that had been sealed back then, was then in Revelation 10:2 unsealed, and able to be understood, and that prophetic time would no longer be a test for the people of God. The one speaking in Daniel is Jesus, and the one who came down in Revelation 10, is also Jesus. Look at the descriptions.

    Time will continue in eternity:

    Isaiah 66:22 KJB - For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

    Isaiah 66:23 KJB - And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

    Revelation 22:2 KJB - In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.​

    Sun and Moon and rotation of the earth will continue for all time. Though in the New Jerusalem there will be no "need" of the Sun, etc for light, for God HImself will be the greater light, outshining His creation as Creator:

    Revelation 22:5 KJB - And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

    Isaiah 24:23 KJB - Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

    Isaiah 60:19 KJB - The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.​
     
  8. One Baptism Active Member

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    No, this present heaven and earth will be renewed.

    Psalms 102:25 KJB - Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

    Psalms 102:26 KJB - They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

    Jeremiah 31:35 KJB - Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

    Jeremiah 31:36 KJB - If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

    Jesus Christ is Israel [Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1, etc], and we His people are His children [Hebrews 2:9-13; Isaiah 8:8-20 KJB].
    Matthew 24:35 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    Mark 13:31 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    Luke 21:33 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    2 Peter 3:10 KJB - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Revelation 6:14 KJB - And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.​
    But Sun and Moon are not destroyed, but they will be moved out of their places:

    Psalms 72:5 KJB - They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

    Psalms 72:17 KJB - His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

    Hebrews 12:26 KJB - Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

    Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

    Mark 13:25 KJB - "... the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."

    Luke 21:26 KJB - "... the powers of heaven shall be shaken."
    Though in the New Heavens and New Earth they shall be far brighter:

    Isaiah 30:26 KJB - Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.​

    "Spiritual" does not mean aetheral, not intangible. When Jesus said that His kindgom was "not of this world", He spoke of its ways, methods, actions, life. This world is sinful, Heaven is without sin.

    Heaven there is real bodies, even flesh and bone, even as Jesus own resurrected and glorified body, even as Moses and Elijah and Enoch and the resurrected firstfruits around old Jerusalem have, who were taken up with Jesus:

    Luke 24:39 KJB - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Philippians 3:21 KJB - Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    Matthew 22:30 KJB - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Mark 12:25 KJB - For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
    The text of 1 Corinthians 15, says we shall have a "spiritual body", not a "spirit body" [which is a scriptural contradiction in terms, for a body has flesh and bones, and a spirit hath not such, as Jesus said]. In other words, we no longer are to be ruled by the Carnal mind, but the Spiritual mind now rules, and then when Jesus returns, it will even be connected with a sinless flesh, a glorified body. yet glorification takes place in the heart before Jesus returns, because He must finish the work in the Most Holy Place in the Heavenly before He comes.

    A "spiritual body" is a "body" of flesh which is under the control [through submission] of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise it would simply be a carnal existence.

    Flesh and blood refer to the carnal, the unwilling to submit to God's Law or rule. See:

    Romans 7:5 KJB - For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.​

    How does Paul use the word "flesh" here. And once we are in Christ, do we not still have flesh, but are we to be "in" the flesh, as in carnal, or rather should we be in the Spirit, spiritual?

    No doubt. it is without sin. It [3rd Heaven and all that dwell therein] has none of the curses upon it as this world does through sin, flood, etc. Yet Christ Jesus came from a specific place, and went back to the specific place, even a world, wherein is the real Mt. Zion and the real Temple.

    In a sense that is true. Some would call it a "prison planet". Yet, Christ Jesus has made us free, even here, if we so choose.
     
  9. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    We are talking about what Paul calls the "third heaven" -- but the suggestion you make - that what is described as physical in the Bible is not really physical it is just that they did not have any other descriptive terms could be placed on every cat dog tree crucifixion resurrection ascension boat fish etc in the Bible. There is no limit to where that sort of "because they were stuck describing everything as if it were physical" could go.

    Today we have airplanes that can be "invisible" to radar -- but that does not mean they are not physical.


     
  10. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    The sun and moon will cease when time does, new heaven, and new earth are replace the current.

    Rev 21:1
    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    This is why
    2 Peter 3:7
    But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    There is no time in Heaven,... thousand years as one day etc. Time is delay in God's judgement, Rev 10 4

    The promises God made certain things will continue are in time... Time will cease,
     
  11. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    All of them physical

    Nonsense. Without time there are no "events" there is no "before" there is no "after" and there can therefore be no "acquiring knowledge" Nothing grows... nothing learns, ..

    2 Peter 3 says a day is as a thousand years AND a thousand years as day ... meaning it is not ruler or new time scale rather it is the way that God sees time. In heaven there will still only be ONE God and we won't be it. It will be the triune Godhead of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    In the NEW earth time will exist according to Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23 speaking of the NEW Earth.
     
  12. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    There is no need for time in Heaven, Time only exists here as a delay in God's judgement upon sinners. Time will be no more.

    Rev 10:6
    And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:


    We know there is continuous worship in Heaven, everyday? is Holy.

    But this is shown in Isa. 66 is not Heaven, look at v 17 , there are bad guys there
     
  13. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Heaven is outside of this physical Universe...
     
  14. One Baptism Active Member

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    Allow me to re-present what was stated before in regards the "sun" and "moon", for "time" does not ever cease.

    Again, please notice the words as spoken through Ezekiel:

    Ezekiel 47:12 KJB - And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

    Notice, real trees, real fruit that shall be "consumed" [eaten] by the redeemed.

    Secondly, notice that the word "months" is used of the fruit that these trees actually bear to be eaten. in order for "months" to exist, the "sun" and "moon" need to exist.


    Ezekiel was shown what Isaiah was shown before him, and also what the Apostle John was shown after in regards the New Heaven and New Earth:


    Please re-consider

    Time will continue in eternity:

    Isaiah 66:22 KJB - For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

    Isaiah 66:23 KJB - And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

    Revelation 22:2 KJB - In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    [Please notice again the real, physical trees, river, sun and moon in the "new heavens and the new earth". Secondly, notice the passage of time again, in its cycles [as it was in the sinless beginning on earth] in both one sabbath to another" and from "one new moon to another", which means that the Sabbath of the LORD thy God comes and goes, every seventh day in eternity, as does the New moons, every month in eternity, and notice the numerical "twelve" in association with those months.]
    Sun and Moon and rotation of the earth will continue for all time [in eternity]. Though in the New Jerusalem there will be no "need" of the Sun, etc for light, for God Himself will be the greater light, outshining His creation as Creator:

    Revelation 22:5 KJB - And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

    Isaiah 24:23 KJB - Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

    Isaiah 60:19 KJB - The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
    Time does not cease, not now, not during the 1,000 years in Heaven [otherwise how would we know the 1,000 years were up to come back, as in Daniel 7:22, "the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom", and Isaiah 24:22, "after many days they [the wicked] shall be visited], and in Revelation 20:1-6 KJB, for the 3rd Advent, and time does not cease in the New Heavens and Earth as shown above.

    Indeed, the first "earth" and "heaven" [the atmosphere where the birds fly, the first heaven]
    "pass away" [even with a great noise] being burned up, but the planet [nor sun or moon] itself doesn't vaporize into non-existence, the New Jerusalem is sitting amidst all of the destruction [Revelation 20 in the destruction of the wicked, only the wicked and sin is burned up] as the Ark in Noah's day was, until God recreates it, having been brought back to a state of "without form and void".


    2 Peter 3:8 KJB is in the context of the Creation of the earth in the beginnnig, its purification by water in the days of Noah [a global baptism, water is external], and its final purification by fire [another global baptism, fire is through and through], and thus speaks about the days of Creation in a greater sense, first their natural literal, and then the great, 6 days of work, the 7th of rest, and thus 6,000 years for eath, and the 7,000th year in Heaven, as the final 1,000 years of the Great Cosmic week "with God". There is a lot more to say here, as all of this earth's history is in seed form in Genesis 1, even as it is written [Isaiah 46:9-10; Matthew 13:25; John 14:29 KJB, etc]. More detail on this if necesssary, but 2 Peter 3:8 does not negate time, but deals with special prophetic time, just as Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6 KJB, etc deal with standard prophetic time.

    2 Peter 3:8 KJB, is citing from Psalms 84:10, Psalms 90:4; Ecclesiastes 6:6 KJB. Primarily from Psalms 90:4, which gives two delineations for special prophetic time. One day with the LORD is as a thousand years and a thousand years is a one day [with the LORD, it is chiastic], thus Adam only made it to 930 years old, dying in the first "day with the LORD". The second portion of Psalms 90:4 deals with the timframe of 1,000 years as "watch in the night". When Adam sinned, night fell upon this world, and it was darkness, but a promise was given in Genesis 3:15 KJB, which is the light shining out of darkness [2 Corinthians 4:4-6 KJB], as in the first day. There are "four" watches in the night, thus it would be 4,000 years before Christ Jesus, the "Sun of righteousness" would arise with healing in His wings, and the Dayspring from on High would come upon His people, ending the long dark night. From Adam to Jesus is 4,000 years, thus 4 days with the LORD. There were only 2 working days left, and both Paul [1 Corinthians 7:29 KJB] Satan knew it [Revelation 12:12 KJB], and then the final day of the LORD, the greater LORD's day [the 1,000 years, a greater Sabbath in Heaven].
     
  15. One Baptism Active Member

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    As stated before:

    That is a misunderstanding and misuse of that text, for it refers not to time in general, but to the portion of the prophetic time that had been "sealed" in the books of Daniel:

    Daniel 12:4 KJB - But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    Revelation 10:2 KJB - And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

    That portion of Daniel's prophecies concering the 2,300 prophecy in Daniel 8:13,14,26, etc that had been sealed back then, was then in Revelation 10:2 unsealed, and able to be understood, and that prophetic time would no longer be a test for the people of God. The one speaking in Daniel is Jesus, and the one who came down in Revelation 10, is also Jesus. Look at the descriptions.

    Time will continue in eternity ... as shown from the texts themselves.

    Isaiah 66:17 KJB comes before Isaiah 66:22-24 KJB, correct? Thus, it shows the picture of the wicked existing, being destroyed ...:

    Isaiah 66:15 KJB - For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

    Isaiah 66:16 KJB - For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.


    Isaiah 66:17 KJB - They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

    ... Then after, comes the New Heaven and New Earth.


    Continuous worship in Heaven, absolutely, but it doesn;t change the cycle of the week, 6 days of work, and the 7th of the rest of God, the Holy Sabbath of the LORD thy God, notice, that even in Job we see the continuous cycle of time:

    Job 1:6 KJB - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    Job 1:13 KJB - And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

    Job 2:1 KJB - Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

    Notice that word "again", combined with "day". We may see similar events in 1 Kings 22:19-23 KJB, being given again in 2 Chronicles 18:18-22 KJB. Differing days in Heaven, which means time passes there, and even as the very verse you had incorrectly used/cited, 2 Peter 3:8, shows that time passes in Heaven, although on a different more massive scale[ 1-1000 ratio] than it does here. Even God the Father is called, in Daniel, the "Ancient of days" [Daniel 7:9,13,22 KJB].

    There will be no "bad guys" in the New Heavens and New Earth. Those former things will have passed away, for sin has a limit [James 1:15 KJB].

    There is only one day, in all the days, which is said by God to be Holy, and it is the 7th Day, because in it He rested.

    All of the other unfallen worlds, wherein all the other unfallen beings live, also have time, even as this [now fallen] world.

    Matthew 21:24, speaks of the varied "seasons", not only on this world, but in the one to come, wherein the righteous bring forth fruit unto God, in holiness, righteousness, thanksgiving, joy and love, in their "seasons", with the passing of time in eternity. See also Ecclesiastes 3:1 and onward, for time will indeed continue in the New Heaven and the New Earth ...
     
  16. One Baptism Active Member

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    No, the first Heaven is the very atmosphere where the birds fly: Genesis 1:8,20.

    No, the second Heaven is the very place where our Sun, moon and local stars are: Genesis 1:14-19

    No, the third Heaven is where God Himself has a very real throne, seated upon a pure world, in a pure city, where the real Mt. Zion is and the real Temple which God pitched and not man is, where even Jesus now ministers in the anti-typical Day of Atonement as out great High Priest. See Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation, etc.

    It is not in "another dimension" as some have incorrectly thought/stated [even without evidence or a single scripture], but Jesus Christ, from this very earth, ascended back, in a glorified body, to where He had been sent from. The third Heaven is a real physical place, and if we had such ability, we could travel to it, but God will never allow sin to leave this planet [it is the quarantine zone, the sickbed of the universal Hospital [angels, as nurses, Christ Jesus the Great Physician, a leper colony on an island in space, struck off [temporarily] from the continent of heaven, etc], and even now [since the Cross] satan is trapped here, unable to leave [1 Timothy 6:7; Revelation 12:8-13; Romans 5:6 [combined with Revelation 1210]; 2 Corinthians 4:4 [this world only and no other worldly body in the heavens] KJB]. Do not let N.A.S.A lie to you. Mankind [as in men themselves] never set foot upon the moon [and there is no rover on mars], the Bible says so. Though satan would love for mankind to be able to leave, and is working as hard as he can so that it could happen, so that he would conduct his warfare again in Heaven, by spreading fallen mankind and sin all over the sinless universe, and the unfallen worlds, he is limited. He presents a false front, he is attempting a counterfeit ladder to Heaven [a siege-tower of Babel, climbing up some other way, than the Way] through the so-called space program.

    N.A.S.A. - Not Always Scientifically Accurate
    N.A.S.A. - Never A Straight Answer
    N.A.S.A. - National Academy of Space Actors
    N.A.S.A. - Not Anything, Simply Aether,
    N.A.S.A. - Neither Aerospace, Sadly, Astro-NOTS!
    N.A.S.A. - Never Accept the Serpents Assertions.

    Need the evidence? I have it. Irrefutable. The mathematics, the physics, examples of the impossible, sound in space on recording, wind, wires, and a lot, more, including video, photos, official records, statements, along with phantasy artists, Disney, and Kubrick, and others, greenscreening, stages, water tanks, and a lot more.

    The third Heaven [2 Corinthians 12:2 KJB] is not "outside the physical universe", but is simply beyond [further out than] the first and second heavens.

    God, when making the 'first' and 'second' heavens, stretched out the heaven that already existed before us, and made room, even a place, for us:

    Psalms 104:2 KJB - Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

    Isaiah 40:22 KJB - It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:​

    Isaiah 45:12 KJB - I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

    Jeremiah 10:12 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.​
     
  17. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    "time will be no more" chronos ou eti time no longer

    Why are you arguing with this verse?

    Many verses you show are within the time period. Do not equate eternal and eternity.

    Heaven is not physical, God is not an alien.

    It is spiritual.

    Rev 4:2
    And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
    Jhn 3:5
    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    Jhn 4:24
    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
    Heb 1:7
    And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels'spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

    The narrative is of physical existence on earth for salvation only has a few verses that reference Heaven solely.
    The 1000 year reign is described to Israel plainly,
     
  18. One Baptism Active Member

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    Citing the Koine Greek does not assist you, since it is defined by context and line upon line, Daniel and Revelation are connected, even specifically by language, structure and content.

    As stated before:

    That is a misunderstanding and misuse of that text, for it refers not to time in general, but to the portion of the prophetic time that had been "sealed" in the books of Daniel:

    Daniel 12:4 KJB - But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    Revelation 10:2 KJB - And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,​

    That portion of Daniel's prophecies concering the 2,300 prophecy in Daniel 8:13,14,26, etc that had been sealed back then, was then in Revelation 10:2 unsealed, and able to be understood, and that prophetic time would no longer be a test for the people of God. The one speaking in Daniel is Jesus, and the one who came down in Revelation 10, is also Jesus. Look at the descriptions.

    Please notice the mentions of "How long" in Daniel, and what was "sealed", even until the "end" of a specific "time":

    Daniel 12:6 KJB - And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

    Daniel 12:7 KJB - And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

    Daniel 12:8 KJB - And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    Daniel 12:9 KJB - And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.​

    Revelation 10:6 KJB, speaks to those "words" that were "closed" and "sealed", until a specific "time" came to and "end", but are now "open" and able to be understood and preached from to all the world.

    Revelation 10:6 KJB is over and done with. It happened already, AD 1798-AD1844. The ending periods of the 1,260, 1,290, 1,335 and the 2,300.

    Notice, that in Revelation 10:7 KJB, "in the days of", as time [sun and moon and cycles] still continued past Revelation 10:6 KJB:

    Revelation 10:7 KJB - But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.​

    We are even now entering into that time... I warn you and all.
     
  19. One Baptism Active Member

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    God is the original. Sinners are the aliens, the strangers, the wanderers, and the penitent are even still pilgrims in this world. Satan has reversed the thought.

    This world of sin, and its inhabitants are alien to the unfallen worlds and unfallen beings therein. We and sin are the foreigners.

    Satan has got the idea twisted.
     
  20. One Baptism Active Member

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    Again:

    "Spiritual" does not mean aetheral, not intangible. When Jesus said that His kindgom was "not of this world", He spoke of its ways, methods, actions, life. This world is sinful, Heaven is without sin.

    Heaven there is real bodies, even flesh and bone, even as Jesus own resurrected and glorified body, even as Moses and Elijah and Enoch and the resurrected firstfruits around old Jerusalem have, who were taken up with Jesus:

    Luke 24:39 KJB - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Philippians 3:21 KJB - Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    Matthew 22:30 KJB - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Mark 12:25 KJB - For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.​

    The text of 1 Corinthians 15, says we shall have a "spiritual body", not a "spirit body" [which is a scriptural contradiction in terms, for a body has flesh and bones, and a spirit hath not such, as Jesus said]. In other words, we no longer are to be ruled by the Carnal mind, but the Spiritual mind now rules, and then when Jesus returns, it will even be connected with a sinless flesh, a glorified body. yet glorification takes place in the heart before Jesus returns, because He must finish the work in the Most Holy Place in the Heavenly before He comes.

    A "spiritual body" is a "body" of flesh which is under the control [through submission] of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise it would simply be a carnal existence.

    When John said, "I was in the spirit" upon "the Lord's day" [the 7th Day the Sabbath of the Lord, since Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, His Holy Day of His rest], it speaking about John being led in prayer, in thinking, in meditation in the heart by the Holy Spirit of God. God is able to show men in visions and in dreams, places, times and things to which that person is not physically present. See Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc. Paul also made mention of this, as did Peter.

    Heart/spirit/mind:


    And thus the "spirit" of man, the "heart" of man is connected with reasoning and thoughts, 1 Chronicles 28:9; Matthew 9:4; Luke 2:35, 5:22, 24:38; Romans 2:15 and so on.

    Peter made proper use of the word "spirits" in regards physical beings, as he referred to the wicked of mankind in the days of Noe:

    1 Peter 3:19 KJB - By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;​

    Exodus 20:2; Deuteronomy 5:6, 6:12, 8:14, 13:10; Judges 6:8; Joshua 24:17, and see also Deuteronomy 13:5; Psalms 116:16, 142:7; Isaiah 42:7, 61:1; Luke 4:18, 13:16, 16:13; John 8:34; Acts 8:23; Romans 6:16, 8:15; Ephesians 5:8; Hebrews 2:15; 2 Peter 2:19. Also see the freedom in Psalms 119:45; John 8:33,34,35,38; Acts 26:18; Romans 8:21; 2 Corinthians 3:17; Galatians 5:13; James 1:25, 2:12; 1 Peter 2:16,19.