Why do people ultimatively go to hell?

HP: Amen! I may not agree with you or BR on many points, but in this we agree. In Him sin was not found………………..but a human nature, being made ‘like unto His brethren’ he did in fact possess. I will start a thread on the nature of Christ.

 

Indeed "Why did you create free will?? Why did you not make us all robots". I agree that this is going to be an emotional time for Calvinists who will all need to ask God that question in one form or another.

Even if they are arbitrary vindictive and biased - such that God "loves you but not your precious child"???

Will you in that scenario be so self-centered as to say "Well good - then you saved ME -- we should not be caring about my child"??

Not true. The Bible says "Pharoah hardened his heart". God does not tempt and does not harden the heart of man. Rather it is the goodness of God like the sun shining - that hardens the heart of the wicked. God "could" simply have slain Pharoah and marched the children of Israel out of the door - but instead He "continually shows mercy" to Pharaoh - causing the judgments to stop when Pharaoh says "enough" EVEN though He knows that doing so will only make Pharoah MORE bold to defy God.

Time after Time God demonstrated His wrath and Pharoah cried out "enough - I will relent only cease this plague" and God listened.

The pesky little details that do not fit Calvinism are all throughout the Bible.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Even if they are arbitrary vindictive and biased - such that God "loves you but not your precious child"???

Will you in that scenario be so self-centered as to say "Well good - then you saved ME -- we should not be caring about my child"??

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This appears to be a good place to contrast the Arminian Future scenario with the Arbitrary Selection model used in Calvinism to SEE just has "satisified" the Calvinist is to continue in an uncaring way toward the FINALLY lost.

(Recall that we just reviewed this SAME SCENARIO for the Arminian side on the previous page
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=874363&postcount=252 )

When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about the saved/electin the end)

We see Calvinists blessing the fact that He chose You – AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.

So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.
[/quote]

<You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?>

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
[/quote]



Calvinist future scenario complete!


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!

All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too instead of viewing God as the source of partial and arbitrary decisions the Calvinism does it.

 

Oh. I am sorry I missed all the parts where God was at the mercy of Pharaohs demands. And all those verses where God was waiting patently for Pharaoh to repent. Maybe you would like to show where Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God did. Happy hunting:thumbs:

 

Not true. The Bible says "Pharoah hardened his heart". God does not tempt and does not harden the heart of man. Rather it is the goodness of God like the sun shining - that hardens the heart of the wicked. God "could" simply have slain Pharoah and marched the children of Israel out of the door - but instead He "continually shows mercy" to Pharaoh - causing the judgments to stop when Pharaoh says "enough" EVEN though He knows that doing so will only make Pharoah MORE bold to defy God.

Time after Time God demonstrated His wrath and Pharoah cried out "enough - I will relent only cease this plague" and God listened.

The pesky little details that do not fit Calvinism are all throughout the Bible.

The text instructs us to SEE what the scripture says about Pharaoh!-
A. His heart "was hardened"[/b] Exodus 7:13, Ex 9:7,35
B. And the blame is assigned to Pharaoh who "Hardened His own Heart"[/b] Exodus 8:15,32

How does a dead man “harden his heart”?? The answer is that In ALL God has supernaturally placed “enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent” Gen 3 so that mankind is supernaturally “drawn to God” against his own sinful nature. Mankind is ENABLED to choose to respond to the “Knocking at the door” Rev 3. And mankind CAN choose to harden his heart instead of opening the door. With each of God’s “knocking” convictions, judgments – calling – we can either soften and respond to the John 16 work of the Spirit or harden our hearts against it.

The pristine Calvinist example of Pharaoh being neutral - and God arbitrarily hardening him is missing from the account. Rather, God is sending those judgment designed to soften and turn the wicked from their ways - but when the wicked "Refuse to take Correction" as we see Israel doing in Jeremiah 5, the result is "hardening".


#1. Whatever happened to "Total depravity"? Why would God need to "harden" anyone? Aren't we "ALL" sinners, and all by nature inclined to be "hardened" against God? Wouldn't the "outside act" of God only be needed if He wanted to "change" our sinful response to something other than the "totally depraved" hardening that we ourselves are always going to adopt? Is Calvinism trying to have it "both ways" on this point? Indeed this is our first clue that something is not right in Calvinism’s spin for this text.

#2 As pointed out in the previous note - this approach only applies to that subgroup within the Arminian camp that believe that man is "neutral" and that do not accept the "totally depraved" aspect of our sinful nature. Only in that context COULD there be "hardening" by God! And that is a starting point that even Calvinists “Admit” is false. But if that sometimes-Arminian starting point WERE true – then this “hardening by God of NEUTRAL souls” would indeed be the devious and wicked plot "against" man based on “partiality alone” that Calvinists imagine it to be.

It would “show” active dislike/hatred/evil-intent by God against a being that is otherwise neutral and might otherwise have chosen God if God had not actively "hardened them" of His own choice, bias and partiality! But such an internally-self-conflicted Calvinist scenario – is not the case.

#3. The softening principle of scripture:

Isaiah 26:9-10

This is true in general - it is not a specific statement about just - Israel.

#4. The hardening principle when man rejects God's correction

 

To ignore the blatant facts of God's dealing with Pharoah where time after time judgments are executed - and time after time Pharoah pleads for mercy and relents -- is to create a counterfactual argument in favor of Calvinism that has no toleration for the facts of scripture.

 

HP: I would just add this to this discussion. By Scripture stating that God ‘hardened' Pharaoh’s heart, it is not to be understood as God forcing Pharaoh to act out of force or coercion.

We as parents can harden our children’s hearts against sin or to unrighteousness by the example we set or the things we say. That does not mean the child still must make the final choice in forming an intent to selfishness, sin, or righteousness, but rather that we are indeed an influence, a influence of their actions and attitudes.

God indeed knew Pharaoh’s heart. He knew exactly how he would act and react in certain situations. God brought circumstances to bear that would garner the freely chosen response of the Pharaoh, to facilitate the end chosen by God He knew would serve God’s purposes. He might have created the circumstances to show clear evidence to the world that He was indeed fair and just in His handling of him and his army. Whatever God’s reasons were, we can rest assured that Pharaoh was not forced or coerced to act as he did. The Pharaoh was a responsible being, forming his intents without force or coercion. God used his stubborn will to accomplish His ends in Gods timing.

 

Would you not agree that Pharaohs destruction was in the will of God though? I have seen all kinds of ways that people come up with for just how God hardened Pharaoh, but no matter which one you choose, it must be recognised that God did it to keep him from letting the people go, which out of necessity included Pharaoh's rebellion to God's commands & ultimately ended Pharaoh up in hell. Would you agree with that?
Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

 

HP: “God is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL would come to repentance.”

Just the same, God indeed has willed that those that are willing rebels and refuse to repent for their sins be separated from eternity from the redeemed, and for obvious reasons. God, as an All Wise God, knows full well that sin knows no bounds and must be stopped at some point in time. In light of this knowledge, and an obvious understanding of Pharaoh’s stubborn heart, it could be said ‘in a sense’ that God indeed willed his destruction.

 

This thread is running out of pages. We better save this discussion for another thread.

 

B. And the blame is assigned to Pharaoh who "Hardened His own Heart"[/b] Exodus 8:15,32

Exodus 8 -


15But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
...
31The LORD did as Moses asked, and removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants and from his people; not one remained.
32But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.

Here then is the great secret that Calvinism can not tolerate in Romans 9. Notice that the text of Exodus 8 shows God DOING something that results in Pharaoh hardening HIS heart. The thing God is DOING is "showing mercy"!!

How tragic that this act of kindness and mercy on God's part is taken advantage of - by Pharaoh to go ahead and harden his own heart against such a kind merciful God.

How sad that Calvinists attempt to use the mercy of God in this regard AS IF His mercy were some evil arbitrary hardening of Pharoah in a capricious act of arbitrary favor and selection.

Classic misdirection in Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Fit that mercy your talking about into the context of Rom 9! Is Pharaoh called a vessel of mercy by
Paul?

 

Very well stated Southern!

Very well stated Southern!

In fact Original Imputation of Sin to which God promises the imputation of righteousness through faith in Christ alone is the very reason why the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is called the "Second Adam"...

All men are made sinners... and are condemned already... yet by the light and Grace of God made to "all men" through Christ whosoever will may come!

And God does not play semantics!

When he says that he is not willing that ANY should perish that is the very reason why any may come! ... Now many are called.... by God's Spirit through the Word, but few are chossen as they respond to the Divine call...

It is true that some men God nearly "forces" to repent as in Saul... But, why?
so that God can say, "but not for you"? Nay! He showed Grace to Saul so that any sinner convicted of sin would have example of God's sufficient grace to those willing to confess their evil deeds and seek God's forgiveness...

Scripture gives many reasons why men do not properly respond....

One is "because their deeds are evil".... quite simply they are convicted in conscience and heart by the Spirit of God, but they "would not" like the cities that Christ wept over.... because they loved their deeds!

Also Christs own weeping over those cities shows his own heart for the lost - that He is willing ... And, although those cities He wept over in His day had MORE light, more GRACE given to them by the illumination of Divine Revelation and Miracle they did NOT repent although NINEVAH DID...

Whether I am right in assuming that NINEVAH was simply not as in love with their sin nor as blinded spiritually to the truth because of the consequences of their past sins spiritually on their souls... the revelation is clear...

Not all cities (or men) are given the same light.
All are responsible.
And sometimes men freely repent when given less light than others!
Hence, God's greater punishment to those who know to do Good and do it not.

God bless.