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Featured Why Do The Reformed/Calvinists Hate the Lost?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Oct 21, 2021.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    The Holy Bible is very clear, that God VERY MUCH LOVES the human race, that is, ALL without exception, which is correctly used by John Calvin on John 3:16. Yet, there are these two groups, and some who support their cause, who the LEAST interested in showing any love for the lost, and, in fact, will argue that God actually HATES them, by misusing Bible verses like Romans 9:13, which has nothing to do with salvation, but rather of SERVING!

    These will WILFULLY ignore every Bible verse or passage that is VERY clear that God actually LOVES even those who hate Him!.

    In the Book of Ezekiel, God says very clearly, “Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?” (18:23). Which is repeated in 33:11, “Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?”. The word “pleasure”, is from the Hebrew, “châphêts”, also has the meaning, “to will, desire”. God does not WILL or DESIRE that ANY wicked sinner, be lost, but because of His Incredible LOVE for the human race, would rather that these turned from their wicked ways, and get themselves saved! The Reformed/Calvinists cannot accept this, and will find any way to destroy what these passages really mean!

    The whole Book of Jonah, is a great example of this GREAT LOVE that God has for His Creation, the human race! We know from the Bible, that the Ninevites were very wicked people, who hated the children of Israel, and God. And, YET, God sends His Prophet to tell these people, the Gospel Message for their salvation! And when they hear this Message of HOPE in chapter 3, the king issues a decree, that every person must put sackcloth on them and cover themselves in ashes, and truly REPENT of their wicked ways, and call out to the Merciful Saviour, for their salvation. And, God SAVES them. Praise the Lord!!! Then we have the reaction of Jonah, the forerunner of the Reformed/Calvinists, who MOANS at the Lord, COMPLAINING, “But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was angry. And he prayed to the LORD and said, “O LORD, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster.” (Jonah 4:1-2). WOW! This is the EXACT reaction that I see from the Reformed/Calvinists, who are DELUDED into thinking that God ONLY loves them, and they are the ONLY ones to get to heaven! In verse 11, God tells Jonah, “And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?”. The Reformed/Calvinists must learn from this excellent Book of the WIDENESS of God’s Love and Mercy!

    In Romans chapter 9, which is misused by the Reformed/Calvinists, to promote their favourite flower, the tulip! What they cannot tell us, is the WHY of verse 22, “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”. Here we are told about those who are going to end up in eternal punishment, whom the Reformed/Calvinists believe, were never meant to be saved, as they were never part of God’s elect. WHY would God ENDURE with MUCH LONGSUFFERING, with these who are hell-bound sinners??? The ONLY reason can be, as already seen in the passages in Ezekiel and Jonah, that God wants these lost, hell-bound sinners, to TURN and REPENT from their sinful, wicked ways, and get themselves saved, because God has NO PLEASURE in their going to eternal punishment! There is no other Biblical explanation for the words in verse 22.

    2 Peter 3:9, answers this verse in Romans 9, where the original reading has it: “The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance”. The reading with YOU, also includes those SCOFFERS in verse 3. God, does NOT DESIRE that these SCOFFERS and WICKED SINNERS, go into eternal punishment, but rather that they turn and get saved. There are some who try to limit this verse to believers. WHY would God need to be PATIENT (KJV, LONGSUFFERING) towards those who are the elect? It makes no sense at all. The elect are 100% guaranteed to be saved, as the Reformed/Calvinistsm, tell us, so what is the purpose of God having to be LONGSUFFERING with them? Note that here we have the same language that Paul uses in Romans 9:22, that God is LONGSUFFERING towards ALL sinners, that they should ALL repent of their sins, and turn to the Lord in faith.

    Yes, the God of the Holy Bible, SO LOVES the lost human race, that He sent His on and only Son, Jesus Christ, Himself Almighty God, that He could “taste death for every human being” (Hebrews 2:9).

    Reformed/Calvinists, have shown that their Soteriology is 100% AGAINST the God of the Holy Bible, and Its Teachings, and therefore must be rejected as being the teachings of mere men!
     
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  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    It's error to to interpret kosmos to mean all mankind, i.e., 'every man/woman/child alive, that has ever lived, or will live', It should be primarily taken to mean 'arrangement' just as it still is today, i.e., Sports World, World of Basketball, Women's World, World of Animals', etc., etc..

    You really hate Calvinists, don't you. Probably have nightmares.

    You're 'misusing' that passage, Ro 9 has everything to do with this:

    22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
    23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,

    ...synonymous with 'tares' and 'wheat', sons of the devil and children of God.
     
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    so all these are wrong?


    J H Thayer:

    “the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race. Jn. i.10, 29, iii.16sq”

    W F Arndt and F W Gingrich:

    of all mankind, but especially of believers as objects of God’s love”

    J Parkhurst:

    “the world, i.e., the whole race of mankind, both believers and unbelievers, both good and bad.”

    E Robinson:

    “the world for the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind. John.1.29, 3:16”

    Hermann Cremer:

    “It denotes the ordered entirety of God’s creation, humanity itself”

    The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words:

    “in Jn. kosmos almost always denotes the world of humans, esp. the world of sinful humanity that opposes God, resists the redeeming work of the Son, does not believe in Him”

    G Kittel and G Friedrich:

    “All the meanings of kosmos come together in the usage of the Fourth Gospel. Not just the Prologue uses kosmos for the world in the sense of the universe

    W E Vine:

    “the human race, mankind

    A T Robertson:

    The world (ton kosmon). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God's love appears also in 2Co 5:19; Rom 5:8”

    M Vincent:

    “The sum-total of humanity in the world; the human race
     
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  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    WRONG! It is the ISM that I hate, because, as you have shown by your comments on kosmos, distorts what the Bible actually says! One of my good friends from September 1983, is a 5 point Calvinist! Every person who is not saved in a Reformed/Calvinistic church, is almost certainly NOT a believer in the TULI, of TULIP.
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The second reference has it closest, as God loves, but has special love for his own Covenant people!
     
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    But you can't ignore the first definition
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The title of this thread made me laugh out loud.

    The ignorance and prejudice of the OP, just in the title, tells me that this thread isn't meant to be a place of open discussion, but is instead a place for the OP to reveal his prejudice and ignorance to the readers. To that end, I am able to see where the OP fully misses the mark.
    Enjoy, and to the OP, thanks for making me laugh out loud.
     
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  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    So you can only laugh at the Truth taught in the Bible?
     
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  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    Why would we hate a fellow child of God? What we find distasteful about Calvinism is the way they abuse scripture.
     
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  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    because we hold to the truth of it?
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I laugh at you. Despite your personal opinion of yourself, the truth taught in the Bible is not the message taught by you. Don't confuse what I am laughing at.
     
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  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    Just not the truths as taught in scripture. You have to twist the words or change the meaning of the words to make it fit your theology.
     
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  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Probably they're all 'skewed' against sovereign grace as you are. It's asinine to think kosmos is referring to 'every man/woman/child alive that has ever lived or will live' each time it's used in the NT. Example:

    19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Behold how ye prevail nothing: lo, the world is gone after him. Jn 12

    Common sense dictates that this could not possibly mean 'every man/woman/child alive that has ever lived or will live'.

    Neither could this one:

    20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18

    ...and....there's many others to reason with.
     
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  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Why Do The Reformed/Calvinists Hate the Lost?
    It's simple really they hate the lost because if they got saved, they would over crowd heaven. I've actually read them saying that
    MB
     
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  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Every time you post you show your ignorance.
     
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  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    SBG,
    According to the Bible, God does not love everyone:

    1) " For thou [art] not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
    5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
    6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."
    ( Psalms 5:4-6 ).

    In the above, we see that God has no pleasure in wickedness, do we not? He hates all workers ( yes, that means people ) of iniquity. He will destroy them that speak lies, and He will abhor ( regard with disgust and hatred ) the bloody and deceitful man.

    Not just the sin, but the sinner right along with the sin is what and who God hates.


    2) " The wicked in [his] pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.
    3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the Lord abhorreth."
    ( Psalms 10:2-3 ).

    Again,
    In the above we see that the Lord "abhors" ( to regard with disgust and hatred ) the covetous.
    This is because of His holiness.
    The Psalmist even says, under inspiration, "Let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined".
    Is this a God that loves everyone equally?

    No it is not.
     
    #16 Dave G, Oct 21, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    3) " The Lord [is] in his holy temple, the Lord’s throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
    5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
    6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.
    7 For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright."
    ( Psalms 11:4-7 ).

    Here I clearly read that the Lord "tries" ( tests ) the righteous, but the wicked and the man who loves violence, His soul hates.
    He will rain down snares ( traps ) and fire and brimstone and a horrible storm...this shall be their reward.
    I'm reminded of Revelation 20:15 when I see this, and it makes me very quiet and sober.

    However, we also see that the righteous Lord loves righteousness and His face looks upon the upright ( His saints ).
    I, for one, am glad that He has decided to have mercy upon me.



    4) " For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.
    22 [There is] no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
    23 For he will not lay upon man more [than right]; that he should enter into judgment with God.
    24 He shall break in pieces mighty men without number, and set others in their stead.
    25 Therefore he knoweth their works, and he overturneth [them] in the night, so that they are destroyed.
    26 He striketh them as wicked men in the open sight of others;
    27 because they turned back from him, and would not consider any of his ways:"
    ( Job 34:21-27 ).

    In Job we see that he is describing the God of the Bible...one who promises to strike evil men in the open sight of others.
    Why?
    Because those men turned their back from God, and would not consider any of His ways....
    I'm reminded of Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, John 5:40 and Ephesians 4:17-19 for starters.

    Perhaps spending more time in the Psalms and Proverbs as well as other parts of His word, would help to give a more detailed perspective to what He says to His people in the New Testament...
    Those that have believed on His Son through His grace.

    I know that it did for me.
     
    #17 Dave G, Oct 21, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  18. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    @SavedByGrace :
    My friend, those you call "Calvinists" do not hate the lost.
    They care about them very much.... it's just that they recognize that salvation is of the Lord, and that He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.

    They recognize that even though they desire that the lost would turn to the Lord, it really is entirely up to Him to save them.
    Read the rest of Hebrews 2 and tell me if you see the context of the "every man" as being developed in the verses after it.

    That said, it seems you've bought into this idea that God loves everyone...
    When His word, as a whole, doesn't describe that at all.
    It describes a God who is holy and righteous, loves righteousness and hates wickedness...
    Who loves the righteous and hates the wicked;

    Who loved Jacob and hated Esau, and He is justified in doing so.

    My friend, the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New are one and the same God, the God that never changes and never lies.

    In the Old we see that He loves the righteous and hates the wicked...
    The same is true in the New.
    His character did not change, and never will.
    He leads with holiness and righteousness, and loves and forgives the sins of some and hates and judges others for those same sins.

    I for one am glad that He laid my sins upon His Son,
    and I love Him, because He first loved me.:Notworthy
     
    #18 Dave G, Oct 21, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  19. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    @SavedByGrace :
    So,
    The next time you're prompted to accuse those that you call "Calvinists" with being unloving towards unbelievers and preaching and teaching a God that does not love everyone,
    Please consider that it might be because it's very likely that you're overlooking the parts of God's word that more fully describe Him and His ways ( such as the Old Testament lays out ),
    and are focusing on the parts that tell us who the Lord loves, just as the epistles and "Gospels" do.


    Put simply,
    The reason that men and women are going to be cast into the Lake of Fire is not because God loves them,
    But because He hates them and they hate Him...just as the Psalms, for example, describe in detail.

    How you see, in the Bible, a God that loves everyone and then casts most of them into eternal torment, pain and suffering for their sins...
    the whole time still loving them...
    I do not know.

    My view on that changed years ago when I began to read His words for myself, and ignored the teachings of men.


    May God bless you greatly.
     
    #19 Dave G, Oct 21, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  20. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread's title might better be worded as "Why do the Reformed/Calvinists seemingly hate the lost?"
     
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