Why do you believe the Bible is the word of God?

Amy is right. The McDowell and Strobel books are good books, but a determined nonbeliever can match empirical/philosophical argument with empirical/philosophical argument.

Remember the unbelieving Pharisees - they blasphemed the Holy Spirit by refusing to believe even though they witnessed the indisputable miracles of Christ with their very eyes. There is no empirical evidence that will convince a hardened heart. And remember the Greek philosophers who laughed when they heard of the resurrection on Mars Hill?

Only when God Himself softens that hardened heart through the power of the Holy Spirit can a person see and understand the things of faith.

And as for it being circular argumentation, the thing is that all argumentation is circular. The presuppositions that are carried into the argument determine the outcome. But non-believers CAN be shown the circularity and presuppositional nature of their own arguments. What they do with that knowledge is up to them.

But a book like Evidence that Demands a Verdict (McDowell) can make a difference for people that are teetering on the edge of belief, so there is a place for evidential arguments. Just like presenting the Gospel – you can’t make them believe, but you can spread the seed and pray that God will give the increase.

 

Thats right. Scripture is clear. I didnt say it God did.

 

Hi Amy;
What you said above is true but for a witness I would explain what His word has done for me.
Through His word I have learned how God can change me and my circumstances. I have seen how He has made the impossible, possible even in me!. I have tested many of His concepts and none of them have failed. I have learned that I can over come by letting Him do it for me. Because of the Bible I have learned what real peace and security really is.
MB

 

I happen to believe that the physical evidence means nothing too without the moving of the Holy Spirit.

It's not because the physical evidence means nothing. It's because of man's heart. How is that heart softened? Only through the Holy Spirit.

We had Josh McDowell for several conferences at our school. He's powerful in person. The evidence that he assembled (which won hiim over) to a hard hearted person is nothing. Can God use that evidence to humble, break, move someone? YES! Why was Pharoah never moved? Because of his hard heart. The evidence was certainly there!

 

Wise words to be sure. We cannot exclude the depravity of ma who cannot over come it without the Holy Ghost.

 

It's beyond me how anyone could deny the Bible is true. I've seen many read it and seemingly understand what it says but still they do not believe or at least this is what they claim. The reason is because like King Agrippa they refuse to acknowledge anything greater than themselves. King Agrippa was almost persuaded. He knew what Paul was saying was true. Still he refused to come to the light.He was convicted but chose the darkness. It is possible to believe and not submit. I believe the Spirit speaks to all who will but listen to the word. Some hate God all the more simply because they know He is real. The conviction hurts even more when we do not submit and justly so. It should hurt when we know the truth and chose to believe a lie.
We cannot choose Christ He has already chosen us. Our freewill can only be used to choose the darkness. Some claim we can choose Christ, but how can we choose what has already chosen us and Salvation remain the work of God? We can only choose darkness. Submission isn't choosing it's giving up to God.
MB

 

Where is the open mouth smilie? Is this MB saying these things? :laugh:
You are starting to sound rather Calvinistic MB........ hang in there bro.

 

A choice of only darkness is not a choice by definition.

 

Who allowed the physical evidence to be found...and for what purpose?

 

I am not sure what your getting at but it certainly goes beyond the evidence being found. Finding the eviednce alone will leave a man lost. Regeneration must and will always be accompanied by the direct work of the Holy Ghost in a man's heart. It's a total depravity thing. Believe it or dont.

 

Since regeneration happens at faith and not before, I don't see what regeneration has to do with physical proof. Many atheists and darwinianists came to Christ because of the physical proof they encountered. It was no accident, as the physical evidence pointed to the Bible and God, as does all nature.

 

Look at it this way. If you are already in rebellion what can you do about it? You can stop the rebellion but then if you do you are no longer rejecting the Holy Spirit. If your not rejecting Him you're accepting Him. It's either one or the other. There simply is no middle ground. You can't choose God He has told us that we didn't choose Him but that He chose us.

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
It's not that I'm right and your wrong please don't look at it as if I had anything to do with it or that I want to win an argument for argument's sake. The Word is the word and I can't deny it. If you want to say you chose Christ when He says we didn't that's up to you. No matter what you're still a brother.
MB

 

You are taking a quote where Jesus is addressing His disciples, and applying it to all mankind. I didn't think you were a calvinist, but this is the same context lifting done by calvinists. If man can only choose darkness...that is a choice of one thing, which by definition cannot be a choice (two or more things). In addition man cannot be held accountable for not choosing Christ if that is never an option.

 

This post is so convoluted I dont know how to address it. No one comes to Christ outside of the Holy ghost regardless of proofs. Scripture just does nto support that.

 

I never claimed that. That is why I asked you prior who allows the physical proof to be found? The HOLY SPIRIT. Has nothing to do with regeneration preceding faith.

 

Ia m not now nor wil I ever get into debates about which comes first, regeneration or faith. Nor have I suggested such. The semantical gymnastics involved in that debate are useless.

Again, the finding of proofs whether by the Holy Ghost or other wise is not enough on its own to lead to saving faith. There must be a work in the heart of man that reaches beyond mans depravity so that he can see and be convinced of the proofs that can only be done by the Holy Ghost. Proofs, evidence, science, scripture, archeology, apologetics etc are a different matter from the inner working of the Holy Ghost and in and of themselves have no power to change a heart seperated from the inner working of the Holy Ghost regardless of who leads them to it.

 

Why is it I see two choices and you don't? You can choose to rebel, or not. That is two choices. To do what you're talking about is actually four. First you have to choose between rebellion or not then Christ or not. Choosing not to rebel is being willing you either choose to rebel or you choose to be willing. However since it isn't us who saves us our willingness does not guarantee Salvation.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Since it is the faith of Christ that saves us and not our own It doesn't matter what we choose it only matters that He has already chosen. That is if justification is our being forgiven of our sins and justified by His death on the cross. Justified by His righteousness. Salvation is about His righteousness not our own. If we choose to be saved then Salvation is taken out of the hands of God.
Man is drawn, convinced, and convicted all by God. Still man is justified by the faith of his God and not his own faith. I'm sorry but I wear the righteousness of Christ not my own simply because it won't do for Salvation. It takes pure righteousness to save, and man doesn't have it. He can only wear the righteousness of Christ after Salvation.
MB

 

One word, FAITH...

Jn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

Before the beginning there was -- NOTHING. In the beginning the Word spoke and it was so and the beginning began.

The Wisdom of man says we are to believe MAN (today perhaps Darwin who acts like he was there at the beginning), but he is ignorant of the fact that believers of our God have always known of the "evolution" of the human mind, and the "evolution" in the development of the purpose of God. We are of the SPIRIT.

Darwin, and his crowd? They are of earthly things, of what they can see, and touch. Darwin was a Biologist, who tried to understand "living things". There are others before, and afterwards who can understand - to a degree - living things. But these Giants of Human Knowledge, looking for truth in the realm of understanding of eternal things with no beginning and no end, are unbalanced, falling down (not stumbling) unable to comprehend things they cannot see being devoid of faith. Acts 19:11-18, "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: 12. So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. 13. Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 14. And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. 15. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? 16. And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17. And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 18. And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds."

Darwin cannot explain this, the beginning as the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ was unknown to him, and he did not fear God.

 

If not rebelling is not an option, it is not a choice.

We are saved by faith IN Christ...not a faith OF Christ. The KJV butchered that one. Christ doesn't need to have faith in Himself, nor does He need faith at all since He's God. Faith is the substance of what is hoped for, that is not seen. Doesn't apply to Christ. Our faith is required in Christ.