Why Does It Bother You?

2. How many young Christians will grow up with a stunted knowledge of the Bible, if I teach them to read it with the belief it is infallible and the very words of God?

It's because discipleship takes time and transparency and their leaders are not taking the personal time with them to make disciples. Instead we have people paid big bucks to come up with new and better programs outside of the program Jesus gave. It is a well known fact that the majority sitting in the pews week after week never lead one person to Christ in their entire lifetime.

E.M. Bounds writes in his book "Power Through Prayer", ""What the church needs today is not more machinery or better, not new organizations or more and novel methods, but men whom the Holy Ghost can use--men of prayer, men mighty in prayer."

Who are we praying for by name regularly?

 

The title of this thread is, "Why does it bother you..." with the first post being a KJVO article, therefore making the question, "Why does it bother you that I'm KJVO?"

My answer? I'm not bothered whatsoever by your being KJVO; I'm bothered when KJVOs put down others for not being KJVO. Why? Because I *KNOW*- not 'am guessing'-that KJVO is a false doctrine. I and many others have asked many a KJVO advocate for PROOF that would sustain that doctrine and all we've ever gotten is spin, guesswork, outright silly responses, or deafening silence. Shoot, if any proof that would sustain their doctrine does exist, WHY WON'T THEY PROVIDE IT???????????

What bothers me is their spreading some ABSOLUTELY STUPID arguments, I.E. "MVs substitute the devil for Jesus in Isaiah 14:12, the NIV denies Jesus' deity in Luke 2:43 by calling Joseph His father", ad nauseum. There are some gullible new Christians and others trying to find Jesus who actually BELIEVE that trash! THAT bothers me, when I have to take several hours proving that stuff untrue to someone who's innocently fallen for it.

What bothers me is when some purveyor of bunk such as "Dr." Ruckman preach messages and write literature suggesting one can be saved ONLY be reading/hearing the word of God from the KJV.

Why do I fight the KJVO myth so vigorously? Because it's a false doctrine, and the Christian has a DUTY to fight false doctrines to the best of his/her ability.

What does NOT bother me is anyone choosing to use only one given Bible version and not trying to tell someone who chooses differently that he/she is wrong. If YOU prefer to use only the KJV, fine, but when you tell me and others, who choose to use several versions, that we're wrong, then it's WAR, a war you're gonna lose because of a lack of "ammo". So be KJVO if you prefer, but unless/until you can provide one blip of proof to make that doctrine true, you'd do well to keep it private.

 

If placing a higher value on spiritual things than material things is selfishness, you might be right. I suppose that you would say that missionaries to foreign and hostile lands who make similar (and even more severe) personal and financial sacrifices are also worse than infidels. I for one am very grateful than many men of God to not share your values.

 

KJOism is such an extremely ignorant and foolish belief that those who espouse it bring reproach upon every Christian, the Bible and God himself. How many thousands of people reject the gospel every year because they think that it is the belief of ignorant fools who have never bothered to think. Even the “ignorant” fishermen who Jesus called to be his disciples were tri-lingual and good read and write.

 

I read somewhere that many ancient fishermen were among the most well-read people of their time. After casting their nets, they often had time to kill before the fish arrived, and they often spent hours reading or writing. And they were often VERY sharp at math, a skill necessary to make the most dinero from their catch.

Sure, it was lotsa work, as they had to take their catch to market IMMEDIATELY after landing it, while it was still fresh. "Live tanks" were little-used, and only for choice individual fish. But they still had plenty of time, as they didn't ordinarily just cast their nets into the water and immediately pull in a load of fish.(Jesus caused some exceptions!)

(Just thought I'd toss in this $0.02 worth!)

 

If placing a higher value on spiritual things than material things is selfishness, you might be right. I suppose that you would say that missionaries to foreign and hostile lands who make similar (and even more severe) personal and financial sacrifices are also worse than infidels. I for one am very grateful than many men of God to not share your values. </font>[/QUOTE]One does not have to spend themselves into poverty and oblivion to learn Hebrew and Greek.

If you cannot learn Greek and Hebrew without spending your family into starvation and poverty, then you have your priorities out of wack and are a very selfish person who is not worthy of the ministry. Our first ministry is to our family. I have Hebrew grammers, lexicons, and Greek aids as well. It doesn't cost that much and we are still eating just fine. What planet are you from that it cost more than a Cadilac to learn Hebrew and Greek and your family has to suffer for the cause of learning the Biblical languages?

Joseph Botwinick

 

You have totally misread and understood my posts! Perhaps you should consider investing in some good English dictionaries and grammars.

 

By the way, “grammers” is correctly spelled “grammars,” and “Cadilac” is correctly spelled “Cadillac.”

 

Please explain it, because in my limited intelligence, I guess I just don't understand what you mean when you say:

I have personally seen men go without food and live in extreme poverty to buy Hebrew and Greek grammars, lexicons, and other books that are essential for learning how to read and understand a Book that was written in languages very different from English.

and

Today, books are so expensive that a basic library for a pastor costs more than a new Cadillac.

and this

And many pastors experience the agony of seeing their wives and children suffer from want for years while they struggle and struggle to save enough money to buy the books that they need so that they can accurately present to their congregations the Word of God.

Were you saying that they are suffering because they don't have the lastest $150 shoes? Is the suffering to which you refer that they don't get to go on a ski trip on Spring Break with the Church? What is this suffering that their wives and children suffer all in the name of buying Hebrew and Greek helps that costs more than a new Cadillac. ?

What are you talking about? Please explain it to this dumb ignorant hayseed how they are soo much more spiritual than me for starving and watching their families suffer all in the name of learning Hebrew and Greek. What kind of suffering are you talking about?

Joseph Botwinick

 

I'm wondering about this also. If you're comparing the cost of a pastor's basic library to a new Seville, I'm having a hard time believing that a basic pastoral library runs $50,000+.

 

I wish it didn't! But then again, what do you consider a basic pastor's library? Some would say that would be only a KJB and a Strong's concordance!

 

Craig from the Liberal Left Coast:

You never answered my questions.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I have enough trouble answering some of the questions of my post-doctoral students!

 

Then perhaps you shouldn't be teaching them.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Kidz,

Craig said this...

"How many thousands of people reject the gospel every year because they think that it is the belief of ignorant fools who have never bothered to think?"

I don't know that I'd say it that harshly but that's the drift. I don't have a problem with you believing the the KJB is best. The problem I have is teaching others than the KJB is the ONLY bible, especially when the arguments don't really hold much water when subjected to academic rigor. It seems that if one questions the KJBO position based on facts he/she is accused of having faith in science and not God. We should not be teaching our children to avoid thinking, to put their heads in the sand when a difficult question arises. It makes Christians look stupid to boot!

 

Bingo, Charles! You hit the nail dead on the head.

I know I've heard that line- "Oh, so you'd put your faith in what those GODLESS scientists spew out instead of what God said?" -way too many times. And by some people that I would have never even thought would believe such things. Just goes to show that you can't judge a book by it's cover.

"It makes Christians look stupid to boot!" Amen to that!

When I was still a baby Christian, I didn't know that there were a lot of other translations. Oh, I'd heard of the Godless NIV, but that was it. So, the first time I heard someone use the NASB I thought to myself, "Why can't you just use the Bible?" Looking back, I realize that I was being pulled into the KJVO quagmire because I was just plain ole ignorant.

When I finally began to grow as a Christian (due mainly to Moody radio and the great bible teachers that are heard there every day), I quickly realized that many of them did not use a King James. O horror of horrors! I began to compare what they read and said to my KJV, and I soon saw that what they were using was a whole lot clearer than my KJV, and that I could actually understand theirs without having to stop and figure out the archaic words.

That was a turning point for me. Once I found out that I wasn't shackled to an archaic translation, my spirit leapt forth in a burst of growth. And I have never looked back.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

OK. Let me understand this...

1. "Here are the facts..."

2. "I BELIEVE..."

I think I missed something. Where... um... where... um, where exactly were the facts? I seem to have found opinion, but no facts.

Yeah, OK. Until you decide to do another drive-by.

If you don't like people debating you on the error of the man-made KingJamesOnly fallacy, then don't post in this forum. Because, if you haven't noticed by now, we are a bunch of Baptists, and don't take being yelled at or challenged very well. Not well at all.

But, please, don't go away mad.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

The lead-in post in this thread is a
direct violation of this rule:

5. No trolling. Trolling consists of
provoking large volumes of responses
by posting absurdities, deliberately
offensive insults, etc.

The Bible also speaks on the matter:

2 Thessalonians 3:14
(HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

And if anyone does not obey our instruction
in this letter, take note of that
person; don't associate with him, so that
he may be ashamed.

If this person posts such a Topic lead-in
again, do NOT post to it. Instead use
the REPORT POST feature on the bottom line
of the original post at the right.
Let the underpaid staff deal with the
problem.

 

i hit the wrong button