Why does Judas suffer?

Judas was not among the 'forgive them's.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Doesn't matter what He knew God decided his destiny.

Atonement is efficient. It atones for those it is given for. Only Israel is atoned for. The blood of Christ is never wasted.

BTW, Luke 16: 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

john.

 

right your back then I'll knock off!

john.

 

You guys are missing it.

The Arminian vs Calvinist debate does NOT hinge on whether Judas was saved or not - as I have already pointed out in detail.

There is NOTHING in the argument about Judas being lost (John 17:12) and Christ being the "Atoning Sacrifice for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (1John 2:2) that is any different for Judas than for any other lost person.

Christ calls Judas "The son of perdition" and claims that ALL the disciples are saved EXCEPT that one "who is a devil".

John 17:12

I urge my fellow Arminians not to be duped by this ploy of Calvinists.

Notice that in my post I avoid this baited argument by showing that Judas - lost and in hell is no different than anyone else who is lost.

The argument of 1John 2:2 for Christ being the "Atoning Sacrifice for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" has NEVER been about "nobody being lost"!!

If you let the Calvinists spin this story around "As if" Judas being lost (or anyone being lost for that matter) is all the "excuse" that is need to warp/bend/edit and wrench the text 1John 2:2 -- then you have lost the argument before the debate begins.

Go back to the details of my post - because it deals with this in the context of Judas being lost.

BTW - the prayer of John 17 is said after Judas has left the room. But even then it points to him as being lost.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Wow just in time! Best of British Dan.

john.

 

It appears that Bob is proposing an atonement that may or may not atone, or a propitiation that may or may not propitiate. To quote Eric Clapton, "it's in the way that you use it".

 

No - Bob is proposing that we not use the pagan concept of propitiation in 1John 2 - but RATHER that we use the BIBLE concept of "Atoning Sacrifice" (as in Lev 16 and the mercy seat).

Bob is proposing that ONCE full atonement is complete there is NOTHING more that is done by way of forgiveness OR acceptance. And this is ONLY complete when ALL the High priestly work in ATONEMENT specified by God in Lev 16 is fulfilled by Christ's OWN High Priestly work that GOD SPECIFIES in Heb 8-10.

ALL of Christ - without trying to "stop Him" at the cross.

Once a correct - Biblically supportable definition of atonement is accepted - then you have an UNLIMITEED Atoning Sacrifice (1John 2:2) for the WHOLE WORLD - but then a limited Atonement (after the Heb 8-10 role of High Priest ends).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Must be something in the water.

 

Scripture???

 

Scripture??? </font>[/QUOTE]I can't remember exactly where it is at right now, but there is scripture that mentions satan entering him. This can't happen if Judas was saved.

 

Scripture??? </font>[/QUOTE]I can't remember exactly where it is at right now, but there is scripture that mentions satan entering him. This can't happen if Judas was saved. </font>[/QUOTE]John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.