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Why Expose the Errors of Catholicism?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Oct 1, 2003.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Many Catholic members here seem to "assume" that non-Catholics publish the errors of the Catholic church as a kind of "hobby".

    When Catholics read about the atrocities, torture and murders of the Catholic church's servants in the dark ages - being condemned by Catholic scholars --- many Catholics respond with the "hope" that non-Catholics have the same level of "darkness" to account for. (As If there really was some kind of parity, or equivalence, between the massive control of Europe by the RCC on the one hand and the monk and Catholic reformer - Luther on the other hand).

    When they read about the errors in Catholic tradition and doctrine - they seek to find corresponding error in the Catholic Reformers of the dark ages.

    But what is the "real truth" about WHY non-Catholics bother with exposing the errors in the Catholic church?

    For this reason. Because the error is so mammoth, historic, massive and unprecidented - it is predicted in scripture. This means that pointing to that error - is REALLY pointing out the fact that God KNEW all along the course of history. That God's plan is unfolding just as He predicted IN scripture.

    So we can follow that timeline - follow that plan and see where we are in history.

    This means that even if there are NO catholics in the room -- two non-Catholics may just as easily point to the historic path trodd by the RCC and match that to scripture - and observe that we truly are in the time of the end AND that all has happened (in terms of persecution, doctrinal error etc) just as God predicted in scripture.

    As much as Catholics "wish" to view it as just an "Exercise in bashing catholics" it is far from it. In the same way - Christ pointing to God's predictions about the failure of His chosen people in Matt 16 and in the discussion Christ had on resurrection Sunday with the disciples on the road to Emaus - SHOWING that God KNEW it all ahead of time - and that they are "right on schedule" was a "faith building" experience for the faithful followers of Christ. Paul uses it in Acts 17:1-5 as well. They were NOT doing it "simply to bash the Jews".

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ October 01, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
    #1 BobRyan, Oct 1, 2003
  2. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Or, Bob, maybe they would not match up the Catholic Church to what you describe in Revelation. Unless they all, conclusively, reach the same argument, your argument fails. And, unfortunately for you, they do not all arrive at this conclusion, even some Baptists and other Protestants on this board. Thus, your conclusion is one of many, and is not, by necessity, THE TRUTH.

    Keep trying, though. The truth it out there somewhere.
     
    #2 GraceSaves, Oct 1, 2003
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Jews "could" (and many "did") respond that the Gospel message - the PLAN that was shown to be in place - was "saying something negative about the Jewish church" as we see them arguing against Paul and the early Christians. For them the entire Gospel message was nothing more than "tring to bring the guilt of this man's blood upon our heads".

    In their blindness - they only saw it as an attack on Jews.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, Oct 1, 2003
  4. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Bob,

    Bad analogy. Holy Scripture NAMES the Jews in the case you demonstrate. Thus, it is NOT like the Catholic Church, for it is not even stated what type of entity/person/power it is speaking of. It gives clues, which require proper "wisdom," but it is not a naming, as it is with the Jews in your example. Thus, your analogy fails.
     
    #4 GraceSaves, Oct 1, 2003
  5. AngelforChrist

    AngelforChrist New Member

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    Grace what about all the verses warning against false teachers and wolves amoung the sheep , who do you believe those verses apply to?
     
    #5 AngelforChrist, Oct 1, 2003
  6. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    However, much of it comes across this way because I would have to agree with Catholics that there is a lot that is only half-truth that is spread like it is gospel truth.

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
    #6 neal4christ, Oct 2, 2003
  7. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    I am not answering for Grant, but I believe that Baptists and many others have more than our share of these wolves. These verses seem to apply quite well to those who knowingly (and possibly unknowingly, I would have to study and think on it) distort the truth and teach that distortion to others as truth.

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
    #7 neal4christ, Oct 2, 2003
  8. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    A professor of mine made an interesting comment once:

    "You can't create a new heresy, because someone has already tried them all!"

    History is filled with heresy after heresy after heresy. Some of the big ones, like Arianism, came directly out of the Church, and threatened to take her over. Thank Jesus Christ, TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN, that this heresy was defeated by humble Athanasius and the Pope, who stood by the correct apostolic teaching regarding the divinity of Christ when so many others turned away to follow this heresy that was spreading like wildfire through the Church.

    The Church has always combatted heresy, which has arisen from FALSE TEACHERS who were like WOLVES IN SHEEPS CLOTHING, drawing the flock away from the truth.
     
    #8 GraceSaves, Oct 2, 2003
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    There is no question that wolves and false teachers come into the Christian churches - ALL of them -- from time to time.

    However in 2Thess 2 Paul predicts a massive and historic "apostacy".

    In Rev 12 and 13 - (and in Daniel 7) we see a persecuting (exterminating) religious power arise after the fall of the pagan Roman empire.

    This is not simply an exercise in saying "hey Methodists differ with Baptist" - it is an exercise in discovering a very specific, very pointed truth revealed in scripture about the 2000 year history of the Christian church itself.

    When Christ spoke of the prophecies - (and when Paul spoke of them) they did not have a single one that predicted that the Jews would be rejected and would turn against their own Messiah and kill him. The failure of the One True Hebrew nation church started by God at Sinai was not a "requirement" of any OT prophecy.

    The Jewish leaders COULD easily listen to Paul or to Christ and say "your words sound to me like --- yada-yada-yada-something-bad-about-Jews".

    But that blinded approach would have missed the entire message of Christ and of Paul.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #9 BobRyan, Oct 3, 2003
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    But what is "Really fascinating" is the degree to which the RC members here - post in favor of the atrocities of the RCC in the dark ages.

    I had "hoped" we were passed that with the RC members - especially after quoting the news release about the Vatican study group that admitted that those atrocities were evil.

    Yet - stubborn persistent clinging to the attitudes of the dark ages -- and members here even going so far as to "demonize the RCC's victims" still today... I did not expect to see it so overtly promoted.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Oct 3, 2003
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    When Christians speak to other errors - like the anti-trinitarian views of the Mormons or the JWs -- it is really to try and pursuade them of error and to get them to turn from it.

    But in the case of the RCC - it is not simply to point out places where the RCC went into error - rather it is to point out the fact that the Catholic Church is actually a historic entity - a character depicted in Daniel and Revelation - a prediction of NT and OT authors showing the sovereignty of God, warning mankind of error and preparing the world to be informed about events at the end of time.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, Oct 3, 2003
  12. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    It's not about bashing a person, but exposing a lie and replacing it with the truth.
     
    #12 gb93433, Oct 4, 2003
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As we see in Daniel 7 and 8 - this historic entity described there - "flings truth to the ground".

    Attempts to restore that truth, to reform the group - or even to point out the historic significance of the group as identified in scripture is met with the same "insight" as the Jews met the claims of Christ or the NT Apostles. They said "you sound to us like - yada-yada-yada-something-bad-about-Jews".

    That is not a very deep and compelling way for them to work through the details and get to the bottom of it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, Oct 4, 2003
  14. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    gb93433,

    G.B. you said, 'It's not about bashing a person, but exposing a lie and replacing it with the
    truth.'

    You are correct. We Protestant Christians are nice guys, we just greatly deplore quasi-spiritual error. In fact if it is error it is not even remotely spiritual, but rather spoken, unwittingly, proves to be fraudulant to those who are caught in the net. We are not bashing a pope or a system of thinking, but as you say 'exposing the lies' and redirecting the thoughts of the mind to His truth which can be mined out of the precious Word of God the Bible.
     
    #14 Ray Berrian, Oct 4, 2003
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Well said Ray.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Oct 4, 2003
  16. Priscilla Ann

    Priscilla Ann Member

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    Ray and others:

    You are so right. It's not about bashing Catholicism. It's about exposing false teaching, and speaking the truth in love. Though I don't post often, I know that I have not always been kind in my criticism of Catholic teaching. I apologize for any hurt I may have caused others. There is no room for religious pride and arrogance -- on either side. Jesus must remain the primary focus.

    Having said that, it does not mean that we should stop speaking the truth. We must continue to teach salvation through Jesus Christ alone - not through manmade rules and traditions. We must continue to speak the simple truth in love and encourage one another to live out that truth in our daily lives, with Christ as our example.

    Blessings!

    Priscilla Ann
     
    #16 Priscilla Ann, Oct 4, 2003
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And all the people said ... amen!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Oct 4, 2003
  18. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Bob,

    Is there any reason that you have not made direct responses to my responses to you? You said the CC was like the Jews, but the Jews are listed in Scripture, and the CC is not. You make that equivocation in your head; it is not plain in the text.

    [ October 05, 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]
     
    #18 GraceSaves, Oct 5, 2003
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I already posted the answer to your charge above.

    When Christ spoke of the prophecies - (and when Paul spoke of them) they did not have a single one that predicted that the Jews would be rejected and would turn against their own Messiah and kill him. The failure of the One True Hebrew nation church started by God at Sinai was not a "requirement" of any OT prophecy.


    There is no 'Jews must fail' prediction in the OT any more than there is a "Christians must fail" prediction in the NT.

    You are simply reaching to get a difference that is not there.

    the ONE true Hebrew Nation church failed - EVEN though established by God with FOREVER promises of His Teaching Word and Holy Spirit - (See Isaiah 59).

    The warning - to them was HEARD by them as 'yada-yada-yada-something-mean-about-jews' - sluffing off the gospel and the warning as "so much bad news for Jews" they turned from light to darkness.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Oct 6, 2003
  20. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Bob,

    So this allows you to make the inference that the Catholic Church fulfills a new prophecy?

    The fact still remains that what you know about the Jews you learn from Scripture, in the New Testament. Unless you have a New New Testament that does the same thing toward the Catholic Church, any fulfillment of the prophecy (or explanation of it) is your own, and not that which is contained in Scripture. It's your "best guess." For all we know, you do not have the "wisdom" required to understand Revelation, and you interpret it completely wrong. Your analysis is totally subjective.
     
    #20 GraceSaves, Oct 6, 2003
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