Why Expose the Errors of Catholicism?

BobRyan · Oct 15, 2003

1Pet 3:
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good consciencethrough the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter directs us away from thinking of the "magic sacramental waters of baptism" and instead
states explicitly that INSTEAD of a "magic sacrament" the REAL saving aspect is in the heart's knowing - deliberate - active "APPEAL to God for a good conscience". THAT is the sense in which baptism saves for it is a public symbol that the sinner has already made that appeal.

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Saved - Salvation to those who BELIEVE. The fact that one who BELIEVES and is saved will CONTINUE to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation
JUST as stated above - at the time we believe.

Romans 10:
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness,
and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13for WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED

Magic - holy water - not mentioned.

In Christ,

Bob
Click to expand...

Priscilla Ann · Oct 15, 2003

Carson:

The reason I asked all of those "basic" questions was because I wanted to hear YOUR answers.

Frankly, in 11 years of CCD, I never heard baptism explained quite the way you explain it, but that was the 1960's and 1970's.

Priscilla Ann

Carson Weber · Oct 15, 2003

Hi Priscilla Ann,

Since the 1960's, catechesis has been in an upheavel, especially in the United States due to a number of reasons, of which I will not explicate here. In the 60's and 70's, I'm surprised that faithful, believing, catechized Catholics were actually still extant in the United States!

Essentially, Dr. Hahn is facilitating a revival in Catholic catechetics by returning to the Bible, which is the soul of theology according to the history of the Church, esp. the Second Vatican Council (Cf. Dei Verbum). First century Jews thought through a framework woven around a covenant worldview, and if you expect to read the Bible as it was meant to be read, you must be schooled in the covenant - esp. in the Old Testament, which is a continuous narration of salvation history, built upon and driven by covenants.

BobRyan · Oct 18, 2003

It is my understanding that the RCC has been around since before the 60's.

Arguing that Catholics in the US should have dissappeared in the 60's is not "compelling".

The point that "new ideas" have surfaced for how to prop up RC doctrines - is not the same as actually showing historic RCC teaching on those doctrines.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Oct 18, 2003

The RCC declares that the doctrine (or error) of Baptism as taught today by the RCC has "evolved over time".

From Catholic Digest (Parenthesis mine in the quotes below) from the June 1999 article.
Please see www.catholicdigest.org for the full article that hints to the changes that have evolved over time.

"Tacking on a little here and dropping a bit there has never altered the essence of the sacrament itself, but by the middle ages, the rite had evolved into something very different from that used by the early Christians".

Pg 44 "go into the world and proclaim the gospel...whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. The new testament does not tell us how the apostles baptized, but, church historians say, most likely a candidate stood in a river or public bath and water was poured over his or her head. The person was asked : do you believe in the father? Do you believe in the son? Do you believe in the spirit? With each "yes" the candidate was immersed.

Justin Martyr (100-165) offered a bare-bones description:"

"the candidate prays and fasts "-
"the church community prays and fasts with him"
"the candidate enters the water"
"the minister asks him the three Trinitarian questions"
"the candidate now is introduced into the assembly"

pg 45"half a century later the writer Tertullian gave a few more details. He talked about an anointing, a signing of the cross and an outstretched hand over the candidate. For those first centuries after Christ, the steps required to become baptized were not taken lightly. Often, they led to martyrdom"

"a candidate needed a sponsor, a member of the Christian community who could vouch for him or her. It was the sponsor who went to the bishop and testified that this was a good person. Then for years the sponsor worked, prayed, and fasted with the protégé until the baptism"

<>

"at that time, the catechumenate (coming from the greek word for instruction) had two parts. The first, a period of spiritual preparation, lasted about three years. The second began at the start of lent and included the routine of prayers, fasting, scrutinies and exorcisms. (daily exorcisms didn't mean the candidate was possessed by the devil. Rather, he or she was in the grip of sin. The exorcisms were designed to help the individual break free)."

"Next the candidate was brought before the bishop and the presbyters (elders), while the sponsor was questioned. If the sponsor could state the candidate had no serious vices - then the bishop wrote the candidates name in the baptismal registry. More than a mere formality, this meant the candidate could be arrested or even killed if the "book of life" fell into the wrong hands"

"it was only gradually that the candidate was permitted to hear the creed or the our father. (and he or she was expected to memorize them and recite them for the bishop and the congreation)."

<>

"after the new Christians emerged from the water and were dried off, they were clothed in linen robes, which they would wear until the following sunday. Each new member of the community would then be handed a lighted candle and given the kiss of peace"

<>
"often it was seen as the final trump card, to be played on one's deathbed, thus assuring a heavenly reward"

"it's important to keep in mind that the doctrine of baptism developed (evolved) over time. It was not easy, for instance, determining what to do with those who seriously sinned after baptism" pg 47

"coupled with that was the role of infant baptism. (rcc) scholars assume that when the 'whole households' were baptized, it included children, even very young ones"

"but again it was the development of the doctrine, such as st. Augustine's description of original sin in the fifth century that eventually made infant baptism predominant. At that point
(read change),
baptism was no longer seen as the beginning of moral life, but (it became viewed) a guarantee of accpetance into heaven after death.

"in the early (dark ages) middle ages when entire tribes in northern Europe were being converted, the whole clan was
baptized if the chief chose to be...by the end of the eighth century, what before had taken weeks (of preparation and process by
non infants) had been greatly abridged. Children received three exorcisms on the sundays before easter, and on holy
saturday;..youngsters were immersed three times."

"the rite was further abridged when the tradition of child or infant receiving communion at baptism fell into disfavor.

"and because baptism was now viewed as essential for acceptance into heaven, the church offered a shorter "emergency"
rite for infants in danger of death. By the beginning of the 11th century, some bishops and councils pointed out that infants
were always in danger of sudden death and began to encourage parents not to wait until holy Saturday ceremony"

<>

FE The Faith Explained (RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican ii).

"baptism is the means devised by Jesus to apply to each individual soul, the atonement which he made on the cross for original sin. (for all sin?). Jesus will
not force his gift upon us, the gift of supernatural life for which he paid. He holds the gift out to us hopefully, but each of us must freely accept
it. We make that acceptance by receiving (willingly) the sacrament of baptism" pg302

"whether it is the passive acceptance of the infant or the explicit acceptance of the adult - when the sacrament is administered the spiritual vacuum
which we call original sin - disappears as God becomes present in the soul" pg 302

"by baptism we are rescued from the spiritual death into which we were plunged by the sin of Adam. In baptism God united our soul to himself.
God's love-- the Holy Spirit -- poured into our soul to fill the spiritual vacuum that was the result of the original sin. As result of this intimate union with god,
our soul was elevated to a new kind of life, a supernatural life, a sharing in god's own life.

From then on it becomes our duty to preserve this divine life.(we call it 'sanctifying grace') within us; not only to preserve it, but to
deepen and intensify it. Pg 62

after baptism the only way we can be separated from God is our own deliberate rejection of God. That happens when in full consciousness
of what we are doing, deliberately and of our free choice we refuse God our obedience in a serious matter. Pg 62 - 63
Click to expand...

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Oct 18, 2003

Other Catholic historians admit to the same kind of evolution over time...

Thomas Bokenkotter's "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" pg 49

"at first the Christian presbyter or elder avoided any resemblance to the pagan or Jewish priests and in fact even deliberately refused to be called a priest.
He saw his primary function (instead) to be the ministry of the word...but the image of the Christian presbyter gradually took on a sacral character.

This sacralization of the clergy was brought about by various developments...the Old Testament priesthood was seen as a model for the NT priesthood (gradually). The more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantine era, with it's features borrowed from paganism, enhanced the image of the minister as a sacred personage. The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became the rule, for infants could not be preached to...

Before Constantine the whole church was considered the realm of the sacred as opposed to the profane world outside; after Constantine and the breakdown of the separation between church and the world, the polarity between sacred and profane was transformed into one between sacred clergy and profane laity"
Click to expand...

These Catholic sources - should not be "ignored" simply because they point out facts that are not pleasing to RC apologists.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Oct 18, 2003

However I do find it amazing that Catholic take these statements from Catholic sources about what the RCC "borrowed from paganism" and accept it without comment.

Makes you wonder what else they accept from their catholic sources "without comment".

Would OTHER Christians be so blind to their own denomination?

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Oct 19, 2003

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
But what is the "real truth" about WHY non-Catholics bother with exposing the errors in the Catholic church?
Click to expand...

The real truth is that non-Catholics, including myself, will be more than happy to expose the errors of everyone but their own denominations. It's a rather old story: believing that there is no long in our own eyes. We do this because it's easier to see at the misgivings of others than the misgivings of ourselves. People do this all the time in all aspects of life. It makes them feel better about themselves. Why do we think it would be different among the religion aspect? </font>[/QUOTE]While it is true that each group prefers to turn a blind-eye to its own faults - and the RCC members here have certainly shown that they are no exception --- the question posed here is simply - "Is there more to it than SIMPLY finding some fault with the Catholic Church"?

Is there enough objectivity left to admit to - and objectively evaluate the "reasons" for pointing out the association between RCC actions in history - and Bible predictions.

Even in the "turn a blind-eye to everything" model - there must be some objectivity left.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Oct 21, 2003

In exposing the errors of Catholicism - the exercise is not simply to grasp at straw after straw seeking for one "rock" that will do the trick.

Rather it is the clear fact that the errors and atrocities committed in the dark ages were actually predicted in the Word of God.

God cared about the church and about the saints enough to warn them of what was coming.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Oct 21, 2003

Suppose you could go back in time - to the dark ages as many thousands of Catholics in opposing Papal armies were preparing to slaughter each other over the subject of "whose pope was the right pope".

Suppose you could "disabuse" them of their catholic errors and thereby save their lives.

How wonderful to have that chance. And yet - are there not still Catholics today that think that by demonizing the victims of the dark ages - they do the RCC a "service"?

Come out of darkness. Step into the light of the Gospel.

In Christ,

Bob

Ray Berrian · Oct 22, 2003

Dr. Grady said in his book, "Final Authority," 'While Alexandria pioneered the allegorical or figurative style, Antioch maintained the strict literalist mode of orthodoxy which would naturally demand a greater regard for precise word-for-word copying.'

The school at Antioch provided the hermeneutics for Protestantism, while Catholicism in some passages especially in Revelation, water down the true meaning of end times events.

Catholics like to elevate Origen as a great Catholic. Did you know that he believed in the preexistence of the human soul (i.e., John the Baptist was previously an angel), Dr. Menzies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers, 10:383.

He believed that Christ's death was paid as a ransome to Satan. Dr. Earle E. Cairns, "Christianity Through the Centuries" Zondervan Publishing House, p. 328.

He denied both the coming "bodily resurrection" and the Millennial Kingdom. Dr. Fisher, "Christian Doctrine." p.112. Now you well understand why Catholicism today still believes we are in the Kingdom Age and denies Christ's future Millenimum of 1,000 years.

Philo, Origen and others from Alexandria were taught to chance the actual meaning of Scripture, by turning the Word into a poetic, allegory. There error was not in the occasional and ancillary use of this enriching Scriptural method {Galatians 4:24}, but rather in their abusive exclusion of the literal method of interpretation of Scripture. To see the beautiful typology in Genesis is fine, but denying the true and historic fact of the Genesis account is terrible.

Genesis chapter nineteen is clearly an historical event of how the Lord views homosexuality. These men were not trying to enter a 'gay bar' but surrounded Lot's house. There were big problems for them because two angels of God were inside and with their power struck the sexual deviants with blindness. Genesis is for real!

When teachers allegorize the Scripture they are taking away the potent value of what Jesus is saying to us.

Ray Berrian · Oct 22, 2003

I apologize for placing this post here; it was prepared for the topic: "The Roots of Catholicism."

BobRyan · Oct 22, 2003

Ray said --
Philo, Origen and others from Alexandria were taught to chance the actual meaning of Scripture, by turning the Word into a poetic, allegory. There error was not in the occasional and ancillary use of this enriching Scriptural method {Galatians 4:24}, but rather in their abusive exclusion of the literal method of interpretation of Scripture. To see the beautiful typology in Genesis is fine, but denying the true and historic fact of the Genesis account is terrible.

Genesis chapter nineteen is clearly an historical event of how the Lord views homosexuality. These men were not trying to enter a 'gay bar' but surrounded Lot's house. There were big problems for them because two angels of God were inside and with their power struck the sexual deviants with blindness. Genesis is for real!

When teachers allegorize the Scripture they are taking away the potent value of what Jesus is saying to us.
Click to expand...

Well - it does highlight a possible reason (the Gospel) as to WHY one might want to expose the errors of Catholicism BESIDES just the yada-yada-something-bad-about-catholic rant that our RC bretheren have "hoped" would stand as "the reason".

IN Christ,

Bob

Why Expose the Errors of Catholicism?

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Priscilla Ann Member

Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Ray Berrian New Member

Ray Berrian New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Useful Searches

Why Expose the Errors of Catholicism?

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Priscilla Ann Member

Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Ray Berrian New Member

Ray Berrian New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member