Why I am KJV Only

This is a very interesting testimony Jim and I do appreciate your candor in posting it. I have not completely read it, but scanned to the bottom and let me point out something. I never really thought of it this way before, but our pastor asked us how often we heard somebody say, well the Holy Spirit showed it to me this way, or God told me this is what I should do, or The Holy SPirit answered my question and here is the answer?

This is all fine and dandy, but according to Joseph Smith, an angel of the Lord's showed him where the new plates were buried for the 3rd testament of Jesus Christ.

If you make a statement that the Holy Spirit showed this to you, then "YOUR WORD BECOMES INSPIRED". There is only one little problem with this, "Only the Bible is inspired." Since, today your words cannot be inspired, then you really should not say, the Holy Spirit showed me this, because if that were the case, then at least 100% of Christians who say that are either "inspired by God" or they are WRONG, when they say it. Does that make sense?

It is not a personal attack, far from it. I am simply telling you that because you say that, as part of your testamony, the Holy Spirit showed this to you, I automatically put up my "warning" antennas and go, Ooooops, here is a modern day revelation. This is the reason I do have problems with TV evangelists. How many of them say: The Holy Spirit tells me that there is a person out there with a bad back, I'm going to pray for you right now, blah blah blah. See my point?

I honestly do not mean so be rude here, just making an observation on the finality of your testimony.

 

Thank you for your testimony Brother Jim Ward.

Jim Ward: "I remember asking myself "are these verses
a part of the inspired canon or not?" I noticed that
the KJV had these verses without the doubt casting footnotes, ... "

IMHO you made an error at this point.
You have assumed that footnotes cast doubt.
Actually they clariy. Nearly all the things you
bring up are clarified by the footnotes, if you have
several translations (and a magnifing glass )

Jim Ward: "These 3 verses make it clear that the King
say Jesus, the Son of God."

I find it rather amazing that Neb, a pagan King/god
knew this information 600 years before God's own
knew it.

Jim Ward: "5) Do you believe that Gods word will contradict itself?"

I seem to answer this about twice a week for the last two years.
Nevertheless, i shall answer it again as some may not have
read the aver 800 screens the average day adds in this Forum.
No, I do not believe that God's word will contradict itself.
I believe that each English Language language is individually
and collectively God's Written Word: the Holy Bible.
If there appears to be a contradiction, it is NOT God's fault
but the fault of the reader who has somehow injected
some error in their understanding. BTW, I do NOT appreciate
people telling me that my NIV Bible is wrong. I do know
logically that is their logical shortcoming (sin?) not
God's, not mine, but i'm only human, so somtimes have to
put my old man's temper under control.

I believe we should have as an axiom: there is no contradction
in the different parts of God's Written Word: the Holy Bible.
If it appears there might be a contradiction we should
lean on holy people and the Holy Spirt to help us see how
what we see as an error NEVER IS AN ERROR.

Here is my experience studying God's Written Wrold for 52 years:

Jim Ward: "16) Where did God promise to preserve His word in conflicting versions of His word?"

This is NOT a good question. The question is invalid therefore
nobody can possibly have a good answer for it. Here are the
assumptions one has to make to ask the question:

1. one Bible conflicts with another
2. God probably needs you to help Him
3. /left to the student as an exercise/

A better set of axioms:

1. God's Bible is found in each English Language
translation of repute individually and collectively
2. I should be honored that God lets me appear to help Him
(obviously HE doesn't need my help, but i need His).

 

This is a very interesting testimony Jim and I do appreciate your candor in posting it. I have not completely read it, but scanned to the bottom and let me point out something. I never really thought of it this way before, but our pastor asked us how often we heard somebody say, well the Holy Spirit showed it to me this way, or God told me this is what I should do, or The Holy SPirit answered my question and here is the answer?

This is all fine and dandy, but according to Joseph Smith, an angel of the Lord's showed him where the new plates were buried for the 3rd testament of Jesus Christ.

If you make a statement that the Holy Spirit showed this to you, then "YOUR WORD BECOMES INSPIRED". There is only one little problem with this, "Only the Bible is inspired." Since, today your words cannot be inspired, then you really should not say, the Holy Spirit showed me this, because if that were the case, then at least 100% of Christians who say that are either "inspired by God" or they are WRONG, when they say it. Does that make sense?

It is not a personal attack, far from it. I am simply telling you that because you say that, as part of your testamony, the Holy Spirit showed this to you, I automatically put up my "warning" antennas and go, Ooooops, here is a modern day revelation. This is the reason I do have problems with TV evangelists. How many of them say: The Holy Spirit tells me that there is a person out there with a bad back, I'm going to pray for you right now, blah blah blah. See my point?

I honestly do not mean so be rude here, just making an observation on the finality of your testimony. </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Brother Phillip,
i've heard this so much i even have a
canned reply:

---------------
I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.

You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.


Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't get your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.
---------------

Of course, i admit, i usually use this on
my favorite topic: the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection.

 

......WHY I AM NOT KJVO......

In July, 1982, I'd been saved less than 3 years. I went with Dad to Cincinnati, just to have a mini-vacation, a father-son thing. While I went to Christ Hospital to see a few friends from my football days, Dad walked to this little park & sat down to rest from the heat & to read his Bible. While reading, three teenagers passed by & saw him reading a Bible & asked him if he knew the Bible well. Dad said he was a Christian & read it a lot; the teens said, "tell us more" while one of 'em went to get some friends. Soon, Dad was teaching an impromptu Bible class to about ten teens. When he finished, he started back to his truck, & I joined him about 4 blocks from it.
Soon a group of 5 men approached us & asked Dad what Bible he'd been teaching those teens from, & Dad showed them the NASB he generally carries. All these men reacted with seeming revulsion; one of'em said, "You need your *** kicked for using that devil's-edition Bible instead of the King James", & Dad said, "if you feel froggy, just leap". (I'm 6'2", 240 LB, & Dad is larger than I.) We were at his truck, & I picked up two ball bats from the bed & gave Dad one. Dad said, "If you wanna have a Christian discussion, fine, and if you wanna have a donnybrook, fine". The men walked briskly away, one of'em calling us some quite un-Christian names. We never found out who they were or what their problem was.

Dad said he'd heard of "King-James-Onlyism", but didn't know much about it, & I said it's high time we were finding out. Upon returning home, I enlisted the help of my wife and two friends & we bagan finding out all we could about KJVO.(To keep my friends from being biased, I did NOT tell'em about my & Dad's experience till much later in our work.) At that time, we didn't have the books & articles at out fingertips as we now have on the Net, so our work was done at two public libraries & at the Marshall University Library. It took us over two years of almost daily research to finish.(In the meantime my oldest son was born!)

We tried to keep as unbiased a view as possible, praying for God to guide our studies.

What we found out is that KJVO has absolutely NO supporting evidence, Scriptural or historical, & that it's totally man-made. I've read virtually every work by virtually every published KJVO author, followed the bunny trails of their assertions to their sources, and found every one of them to be either opinion, guesswork, or flat-out LIES. There's simply NOTHING to support the myth that"the KJV is the only valid English Bible translation".

I've found out that the KJVO myth is fueled by a great double standard-"IT'S WRONG IN THE MODERN VERSIONS, BUT OK IN THE KJV." This is easily seen from the KJVOs' posts on this very board.

I have honestly tried hard to find ANYTHING that would lend a little credence to the KJVO myth. It simply doesn't exist.

It would be so much simpler if KJVOism were valid. We could all use one BV & live happily ever after. But from what we know, this would be living a lie. God is NOT LIMITED in how He can present/provide His word to us.

As for your questions, Jim, I've answered them before on other boards, but I'll do it again on THIS board, just to show you & the other readers that, unlike the KJVOs, I'm not afraid to answer questions truthfully and directly.See my next post.

 

Wow Roby, I've never heard of KJVO's like that, wanting to be violent because your Dad used the NASV!
I too am a former KJVO-I won't get into the academic reasons, as others have dealt with over and over. For me, their was an emotional aspect. For example; my church in Louisville split because the Asc Pastor was a Ruckmanite, in fact Ruckman wrote an article praising this man's divisiveness, and my Pastor, who had and has a "name" amongst IFB's was called all kind of names...
Also the KJVO's I know, many (not all) are just plain mean and are characterized by oneupmanship and arrogance. Many of them I used to know when I lived in Kentucky also were prejudiced against Blacks, and had an aura of superiority about the White race, and the White language! what I mean is the language and nation the KJV came from: England. It was a weird form of British Israelism (my own observation and opinion). This of course does not encompass all KJVO's, because they are some who are Black, Hispanic, etc.
I respect folks and understand where they come from if they only want to use the KJV, but when they cross the line is when they take on some of the aforementioned characteristics that the very KJV Bible speaks against! Pro 6:19 comes to mind, bearing false witness, and sowing discord. sad indeed.
I could continue but I don't want to bore you all!
Bro Kevin

 

Jim Ward's questions, & my answers:

1) Do you believe that Jesus is from ancient times and not everlasting?

He was, is, & always will be.
John 8:58, NKJV-Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
Hebrews 13:8, NKJV-Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

2) Do you believe that God has only one son?
God has many sons by adoption, but only one BEGOTTEN Son.
Romans 8:14-For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

I believe you're familiar w/John 3:16, so I won't paste it.

3) Do you believe that an eternal God can be begotten?
Yes, Scripture says so. If you believe Jesus is God, He says so Himself.(John 3:16, John 1:18, John 3:18, 1 John 4:9 among others)

4) Do you believe that one can be baptized without faith in Jesus?

Yes, but all that person will be is a wet sinner.

5) Do you believe that Gods word will contradict itself? (this is for those who claim that the mv's of their choice and the KJV are all the word of God)

No, even though it may appear to do so. We explain the differences among the Gospels and among Samuel, Kings, & Chronicles where they give different accounts of the same events within the same Bible version by saying they each were written by different people who may or may not have witnessed those same events more readily than another writer. We MUST apply that same explanation to the differences between BVs and between the various mss or we're using a double standard.

6) Where can I find the inspired, preserved perfect words of God that were not added to or taken away from?

In any valid Bible.

7) What's more important in translating the Bible, what a translator THINKS were the thoughts of the Bible writers, or the words that God inspired and preserved?

The words themselves, as much as they can be translated into the target language.

8) Where is the Bible command to only have a 66-book canon?

Right after the verse which says, "Thou shalt use the KJV only". Feel free to add to the canon if you wish, but don't expect to have a lotta followers.

9) Where does the Bible tells us we will have even one translation in English?

Nowhere, let alone that God will be limited to only ONE translation in any language.

10) Where does the Bible tell us to use the NIV, NKJV, NAS, RSV, TNIV, NWT, TEV, ESV (et al)?

Right after the verse that says, "only the KJV is valid in English".

11) Where does the Bible say we need Gods word in a version that our carnal and finite minds can understand it?

1 Corinthians 14:9-So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.10-There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11-Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.

12) If a version is based on a text that is guilty of adding to the inspired text, or taking away from it, is that version still the inspired, preserved word of God and something that we should use today?

No, but the "guilt" must be PROVEN first.

13) Where is your support for a 39 book Old Testament and a 27 book New Testament?

In every valid English Bible version ever made. If you care to expand or shrink the canon, go right ahead, but I'll stick with what God's provided in English for many centuries up through the present.

14) If the word of God is added to, is it still the inspired, complete, perfect preserved word of God?

Depends upon WHO did the adding. JESUS added MUCH to the Scriptures. Peter recognized Paul's letters as Scripture.

15) If the word of God is taken way from, is it still the inspired, complete, perfect, preserved word of God?

Again, it depends upon WHO did it. Each Gospel gives a different number of women appearing at Jesus' tomb Sunday morning. Someone either added to or omitted from the number, but we accept all four accounts as Scripture.

16) Where did God promise to preserve His word in conflicting versions of His word?

In His canonization of Samuel, Kings, & Chronicles, which narrate different versions of the same events & later, when He canonized the four Gospels, which also give differing accounts of the same events.

I've answered YOUR questions, Jim. Care to answer MINE??

1.) Do you agree that Scripture is the highest written authority we have?

2.) If you answer"Yes" to #1, do you agree that any doctrine about Scripture MUST BE SUPPORTED by Scripture since there's no higher written authority?

3.) If you answer "yes" to both #1 & #2, by what authority do you advocate a doctrine ABOUT Scripture(KJVO) that is NOT SUPPORTED by Scripture?

4.) No two English BVs are alike, old or new. By what criteria do you select the KJV as the ONLY valid version among all of them?

5.) Is the Geneva Bible a valid English Bible translation? Why or why not?

6.) Is KJVO of God, or man? I say, it's of man, and I have documented PROOF of such. If you say it's of GOD, can you document any proof? If it's a theory about God's word, but not of God, by what authority do you advocate it?

7.) Why are certain things such as paraphrasing OK in the KJV, but not in any other version? Is this a double standard, or what?

 

This is a very interesting testimony Jim and I do appreciate your candor in posting it. I have not completely read it, but scanned to the bottom and let me point out something. I never really thought of it this way before, but our pastor asked us how often we heard somebody say, well the Holy Spirit showed it to me this way, or God told me this is what I should do, or The Holy SPirit answered my question and here is the answer?

This is all fine and dandy, but according to Joseph Smith, an angel of the Lord's showed him where the new plates were buried for the 3rd testament of Jesus Christ.

If you make a statement that the Holy Spirit showed this to you, then "YOUR WORD BECOMES INSPIRED". There is only one little problem with this, "Only the Bible is inspired." Since, today your words cannot be inspired, then you really should not say, the Holy Spirit showed me this, because if that were the case, then at least 100% of Christians who say that are either "inspired by God" or they are WRONG, when they say it. Does that make sense?

It is not a personal attack, far from it. I am simply telling you that because you say that, as part of your testamony, the Holy Spirit showed this to you, I automatically put up my "warning" antennas and go, Ooooops, here is a modern day revelation. This is the reason I do have problems with TV evangelists. How many of them say: The Holy Spirit tells me that there is a person out there with a bad back, I'm going to pray for you right now, blah blah blah. See my point?

I honestly do not mean so be rude here, just making an observation on the finality of your testimony. </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Brother Phillip,
i've heard this so much i even have a
canned reply:

---------------
I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.

You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.


Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't get your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.
---------------

Of course, i admit, i usually use this on
my favorite topic: the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection.

</font>[/QUOTE]Well, I admit that this is probably number 2 on my list of poorly worded posts and was actually probably out of line considering that Jim was simply telling his point of view and trying to explain that he actually "felt" the Holy Spirit was leading him this way. We all do that (or have done that) to a certain extent.

I was preoccupied while recording our radio sermons for tomorrow's radio broadcast (we have a low-power FM here), while I was trying to post. The statement just took me a little wrong.

I do disagree with Jim in his reasonings, but I do respect that he has the right to believe that way. So, I should have argued the logic of the post, not his "byline".

In reality, Jim, I read about two-thirds of your post, and got tired, scrolled on down to the bottom and responded poorly, in all honesty. Sorry, I will keep the discussion to the subject matter next time.

Now if you specifically say the Holy Spirit TOLD you the KJV is the ONLY Bible, then we can argue that point. Fair?



In reality, your post, although I do not agree with your conclusions is an interesting story, I would still like you to tell me which one of the King James' Bibles is the "inspired" one? Did anybody ever think that each was an MV, when it was printed? I bet sparks flew every single time it was revised.

 

Now nobody can change the KJV -- too
many KJVOs to protest.

 

Oh, I always get to feeling like I did somebody wrong just about the time they say something like this to me on another subject thread:

"I actually find this to be fun because it helps you all expose the total fallacy of your demonic view."

I need somebody to kick me each time I go and apologize before I read all of the responses to my posts.

 

Pastor Kevin R:Wow Roby, I've never heard of KJVO's like that, wanting to be violent because your Dad used the NASV!

I now know these gents were the very great exception to the rule of general KJVO conduct, but they DID motivate Dad & me to begin an honest search for the truth. I asked God to give me an unbiased eye in my study, and I believe I've done so. This search helped me to escape the prison of Armstrongism by giving me the knowledge to discern that ole Herbie was preaching several false doctrines, such as "Annihilationism", the belief that the soul of one who dies in sin is destroyed in gehenna rather than punished eternally.

The bias that was hard to shake was the language that 2 of those men used, even more than their hints of violence.(I am quite ready myself, & will not hesitate to use whatever violence necessary to defend family, property, or self. However, I believe that to use violence or threat of harm to force one's religious beliefs upon another is a GROSS SIN!) No devout Christian would use such language under any circumstance. I reckon there may still be such people around now, but I haven't encountered any more like them.

I respect folks and understand where they come from if they only want to use the KJV, but when they cross the line is when they take on some of the aforementioned characteristics that the very KJV Bible speaks against!

When someone attacks a MV, especially a version I consider valid, I often respond in kind to show'em the KJV isn't any more "perfect" than any other version. i believe the KJV is as valid as any other version in any language, but I completely reject the KJVO myth because it simply has no supporting evidence at all; it's an entirely man-made doctrine of fairly recent origin.

As for Ruckman, his public conduct, his writings, and his personal life should dismiss his credibility even among the KJVOs. As for Riplinger, even another rabid KJVO author(David Cloud)has exposed her plain ole dishonesty for all to see. She is one of the main spreaders of the modern KJVO myth, and I honestly don't know how any devout Baptist could believe one word of her works if they take the time to chase the bunny trails from her books & videos to see just how wrong she's often been. KJVO was based upon misinformation and dishonesty from the start, and if anyone takes the time to really search out its beginnings, verify the assertions made by the various KJVO authors, and keep an open mind while doing it, he/she will see just how wrong the KJVO myth really is, that it's based upon a great double standard, and that almost all its arguments are based upon guesswork, innuendo, mistaken beliefs, and plain ole DISHONESTY.

 

Good post, Robycop3

 

I rememeber years ago when I was in college and my roomate and I were discussing something. I asked him how he came to that conclusion. He told me the Holy Spirit told him. I pointed him to scripture that said quite the opposite. He had a strange look on his face. He has not learned to this day. He even went so far as to tell a young lady that God had spoken to him about marrying her. They were married and have had no end of troubles since. I do not see in scripture where the Holy Spirit is a great substitute for wisdom. It does say that a wise man has many counselors.

 

Am I the only one wondering if Jim will actually post any answers to the questions Cranston asked? Probably so.

The thing that bothers me about Jim's account is the fact that, although EVERY version except the KJV had footnotes explaining that not all manuscripts had those verses, he decided that ALL of them were wrong. I mean, if I had a dozen people telling me the bridge was out, and one saying that it was fine, I wouldn't go tearing off without any reservations. Those footnotes are there for a reason.

I love reading the various translations side by side. By comparing the way that they chose to word each verse, I get to see so much more of the true meaning . It's like turning a diamond in the light and watching the light shoot from the facets.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Brother Ward:

As I have stated previously in other threads, I am a KJV Preferred precisely because of those doubt-casting footnotes you mentioned. While I was with the Arminian Baptists, when discipling a new "convert" I felt it was always better to start them off with the KJV, like starting learning to drive a vehicle using stick shift. Once you learn it, you don't lose it.

But I would not make the Bible Version used by a brother in Christ, or a church, a test of fellowship.

 

This is very true. I bought a parallel Bible that was on sale for about $3.00. The big white one with NASB, NIV, KJV and the Living Bible (paraphrase). It really helps clarify, especially the older language of the King James of which many of the words--I do not understand.

The sad fact is that the KJV is an excellent translation, but many words just simply do not mean what we think they mean. For instance, a lady posted that her 6 year old was reading parts the KJV and understanding it and looking up the words she didn't know in a dictionary. The sad fact is that the child would have a much better understanding of exactly what was written on the originals by reading a newer version.

I remember as a child, the little paperback "Good news for Modern man" (which was not extremely accurate) but, I just loved to read it because it was soooooo easy to understand. I would read it all the way through church every Sunday instead of listening to the pastor, because it just fascinated me. I never could do that with the KJV; and for your KJVO's I am NOT saying the King James is and was not a great translation, it just contains archaic words.

When I first got my ESV, I questioned many verses because I saw things I never saw before. My pastor helped by looking it up in Greek (even using the textus receptus, to compare to the KJVs claimed manuscripts and I was shocked that I was not understanding the verses correctly in the KJV and the ESV clarified it for me.

 

Please note, that I am not degrading the Holy Spirit's assistance in reading the Bible, but sometimes if your life is not right with the Lord. We may interpret our own way and just think it is the Holy Spirit. Just as gb93433
posted above.

We are human and what we think is the Holy Spirit may not be, it may be our own interpretation. I do pray for wisdom and have faith God gives me some wisdom, but I'm still limited due to sin and human limitations.

 

Amen on your last paragraph Trotter.Well put!

 

Pinoybaptist:

What do you think of the footnotes/marginal notes in the 1611 KJV?

While I was KJVO, the footnotes bothered me also. But then I saw a 1611 that used the same footnotes. (except they are in the margin; hence marginal notes)

Truth is, using the ending of Mark, we don't know how the original ended. No one knows. Even using textual criticism you can come up with differing opinions. So why not be honest and admit we don't know how it ended? What are we afraid of? The truth?

I personally like the shorter ending, it fits in with the style of Mark.
but that is just my opinion.

BTW, I like reading the testimonies of all here. It makes it easier to *see* you as a real person instead of a computer screen.

It also makes it harder to be mean to you!!!!!

 

Amen Brother Ward! Thanks for sharing that great testimony on how you became a believer in God's word.

As for the others, well, we'll just keeping praying for uins.

Also,

No it doesn't. If the Holy Spirit has not shown you something in the Bible, try using and believing the King James Bible, the Holy Spirit will bring things out in a verse that maybe you onced just read or scanned across and thought nothing of it. I've done it, and it is a blessing to known that the Holy Spirit is there to help you along and show you a thing or two.