Why I am KJV Only

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,

Thank you LarryN and ScottJ for attempting to answer my question as best as you could. However, I have not seen anyone here on these threads, EVER question the salvation of another. Yes, it is indeed irrelevent to the truth in this matter. WE do not base the truth of God Almighty, based upon the actions or words of any man. God's word of truth is our ONLY AUTHORITY for truth. I am sure there have been, and maybe today are cults that use the KJV for their bible, and I am sure there are also cults that use the modern versions. Does this get to the facts and truths of this issue by using their beliefs/words/actions as the underlying method/basis to determine what is the truth and what is not? I would sure hope not, because we would then all be in confusion. The issue here is the truth regarding the KJV and the modern versions or more specifically the texts that underline them. Which bible is the very preserved word of God for the english speaking people? They are not the same, and why is this? And because of this, which one is the preserved word of God? They both cannot be it, because they are not the same, nor are they based on the same underlying text. This is the issue, and you all continually avoid this by bringing up such irrelevent things as your last post, and many others. WE do not judge whether a thing be true based upon a persons actions or words, but by the truth in God's holy and pure preserved word of truth, and his leading us to all truth.

I have another question, if you don't mind answering. If any of you have attended Biblical seminaries, what was your training in the area of biblical manuscripts/texts pertaining to this bible issue? Who were the men who wrote/studied that you learned/read/studied from? Did you read/study all sides of this issue in an unbiased manner? Are your reasons for approving of the modern versions solely from a conviction from God based upon his word of truth? Or (and be honest) are they based upon the actions/words of those who have warned against them? What are your reasons for approving of the modern versions, and ultimately the text that underlines them?

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

You know, Michelle, those are really good questions. Why don't you start a whole other thread asking those questions? That way, all of us who are not KJVO could answer them, and it wouldn't be taking this thread off topic from the original question.

 

Great Idea Russell. How about it Michelle?

 

If I said that because you were KJVO then you were unsaved... would it be relevant to whether I were a trustworthy source of information? I think it would. The Bible never predicates salvation on a particular version of the Bible and anyone who says different has little respect for the scriptures in any translation.

You say that but what is the basis for your KJVO beliefs? The KJV is silent on that issue. You are trusting someone or something besides the Bible to reach your conclusion.

I agree completely.... which is why I am no longer KJVO.

The only times I have seen non-KJVO's argue this is when KJVO's blame or associate MV's with the New Age, modern apostacy, or liberalism. What's good for the goose is good for the gander... you simply can't have it both ways. If you are going to say that MV's are wrong because of who uses them then to be consistent you must accept the same for the KJV.

IF KJVO's allowed that to be the issue, most of the non-sense could be avoided. Honest, spiritual people can have honest disagreements even over significant issues.

Why must there be only one? If I told one of my children to pass on a message to another of my children, what would be important? That they quoted me verbatum or that the hearer understood my "word" to them? We best hope that it is the latter because God never inspired His Word in English. Every Bible available to "english speaking people" uses completely different words than the texts that God directly inspired through the Apostles, prophets, and holy men of old.

One's "word" is the substance of what they wanted to communicate to another person. It can consist of a wide range of words or of no words at all. I can communicate "my word" to my kids with a look of my eye.

The bottom line is that our Bible versions don't contradict each other, they compliment each other. You have gotten all twisted up over the fact that the words are different rather than looking at the issue in context. The original wording no longer exists. What we have left is a mountain of evidence that together affirms what the originals said.

If you add all of the disputed texts from the critical text vs the TR vs the majority text... not one doctrine is at stake. If you leave out all of the disputed texts... not one doctrine is at stake. They communicate the same "word" from God.

Ah, but you do. You have stated that only the KJV is the preserved Word of God for English speaking people but cannot provide one shred of biblical evidence for it... not one. So you are most certainly judging truth based upon "a persons actions or words"... if nothing else you are basing it on the actions of the KJV translators which makes their character and credentials relevant.

I didn't attend seminary.

But no, I didn't start out unbiased... I was KJVO. Like you I was "shocked" that MV's dared to change the Bible much less omit words and phrases. Then I was challenged on it by someone I respected and began to read both sides.

I found that KJVOnlyism conflicts with both scripture and a biblically principled review of the relevant facts. For instance, your main argument here that the different versions can't all be God's Word. But that conflicts with any reasonable interpretation of the undeniable fact that all of the hand written manuscripts differ from each other. Further the underlying text for the KJV disagrees with each of the manuscripts from which it was derived as well as every other existing manuscript. There is no evidence that that exact set of words had ever existed together before Erasmus collated them from 6-10 different mss.

Yes on two levels. First the examples given in scripture that validates both translations and different wording being the Word of God. Second, from applying biblical principles of consistency and intellectual honesty to the facts pertaining to the Bible and its preservation to us. This included accepting the fact that the KJV has a few weaknesses as a translation... but none that effect doctrine.

That weighs into it because a person's character is often a predictor of how they will handle truths... in particular truths that disprove opinions that they hold strongly. The attitudes I referred to are mutually exclusive with godly humility.

Because of many reasons.

One, they are based on good scholarship and a reasonable, honest, consistent treatment of the evidence for the originals. I say that even as I disagree with some of the major premises underlying modern textual criticism. I tend more toward the majority text position.

Two, they are consistent and in fact supportive of the KJV... that I was raised with. When I checked out KJVO claims about doctrines being omitted and the like and then compared those charges to the truth and the explanations for the discrepancy, I found KJVO's to be disingenuous in their presentation of the facts, their reasoning, and their conclusions. Their methods discredited their conclusions.

Three, (and this sounds simplistic I am sure) I understand the difference between the various definitions of "word". It can mean a single unit of speech made up of sounds and letters or it can mean the substance/message intended by a communicator for a recipient. The value, quality, and trustworthiness of a Bible translation is subject to how well it communicates the "Word", not by the peculiar wording it employs.

 

Sorry guys...

 

Michelle, this isn't the questioning of one's salvation some of us have referred to today, but here's a quote from your own words (posted today in another thread) that is almost as egregious:

In this quote you aren't exactly expressing doubt about my salvation, but the implication is clear that you consider me less spiritually mature than yourself (at least in this regard).

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

LarryN,

I never ever implied that you were less spiritually mature in any of my posts to you or anyone else, and even if I did, this would not question your salvation. I think you maybe misunderstand spiritual maturity, as I only was giving you good christian advice, concerning this matter.

Do I believe that regarding this issue, that I am not decieved in this matter? Yes. I believe that this is something the Lord has shown me, and you and others cannot yet see this (the truth of this matter) for some reason. Does this mean that I am saying you are less spiritually mature than I am? Absolutely Not! Do you agree, that some can be decieved in an area, and not realize it, and while others are not? Does this make one more spiritually mature than the other? I believe some are more mature in some areas, than others, and we may not yet all be at the same maturity level in all areas. Do you admit that you can be decieved? Or that you might be decieved regarding an issue? I can admit to it, and have been decieved temporarily in the past, and the Lord has convicted my heart of these things and I have repented and my mind has been renewed in Christ because of this. It takes humbleness toward the Lord and prayer, and a desire to know and understand the truth and to please the Lord and remain in his will. There are many things we as christians must overcome, resist, and be renewed in our minds of. Through all of this comes spiritual maturity. Are we all at that same level of spiritual maturity? Do I have a way of knowing what your spiritual maturity is? No, not at least from these threads. I can only see, that in this area, you and many others are decieved, and unknowingly at that. You believe something to be the truth and right and of God, when in fact the evidence and truth shows that it is not. I do not understand why christians, who love the Lord, would approve of those translations that have weakened the doctrines of Christ Jesus our Lord, and omitted from God's pure and holy word of truth, to then claim that they are still God's pure and preserved word of truth to his people. This to me, shows me the deception that many are in. I was once in it also, until the Lord showed me otherwise.

Another thing I have noticed, is the fact that many have attached the extremest label and all that comes with it to those who do not believe those same things, but understand the modern versions, or the text that underlines it is corrupt. Because many do this, they will not really listen to what is the truth in this matter, and the focus remains upon, and the bias of it has affected the real truth in this matter, clouding the minds of many regarding this issue. I can understand this to a point, but it is and has been very frustrating for those of us who do not hold to those same views that many have attached to us, and therefore, we are falsely accused, and misunderstood, not of our own accord, but because of the preconcieved ideas, beliefs and attitudes of many on these boards, who will not even listen to reason. This is the truth. One thing to remember, is that sometimes the truth hurts, even though one does not mean it to hurt. That is just the way it is, and sometimes those who the truth hurts, takes it the wrong way, rather than the way one should. But if the truth did not hurt, or peirce the heart, one would not be affected by it. It has to hurt, in order to be helped/cured of it's disease or wound. It has been said by many that the KJVonlyism is a myth and a cancer. So I can see how what I am saying here will be twisted and used against the truth I am saying here. The fact and truth of the matter is, that most modern versions out there today, do not represent the whole counsel of God, in that they have weakened doctrines, and cast doubt upon the very words of God to his people. The methods used to collate the text that underlines most modern versions is one that denies the preservation of scriptures, and puts the methods of man, and science, and scholarly wisdom, above that of the preservation of the scriptures, which ultimately is denying the power and promises of God.

It is one's own liberty, to choose what version one will use. I am not here to tell anyone what version to use. I only come here asking why would one want to use a version that has weakened important doctrines of our faith, and casts doubts upon what is the preserved words of God, which ultimately can ruin not only our witness, but weaken our defenses against the wiles of the devil, and the deceptions of the world, and quite possibly hinder our spiritual walk with the Lord.

I have also noticed that many on this Bible Version Debate threads are modern version advocates. There are very few who come here with the same understanding as I have. This also shows me alot, although my conviction regarding this matter does not come from this fact alone. It only shows to confirm the truth I have been given regarding this issue.

It has also been said, that a preacher has no biblical or Godly right to bring up the KJV issue among their congregations, because it is not based upon the scriptures, and there is no teaching of this in the scriptures and is divisive. However, I beg to disagree. Pastors are to warn their flocks of the dangers and deceptions, and keep them from them. The modern versions have taken great liberty with God's preserved word of truth, and it is quite appropriate for a Pastor to warn of them, and refuse to allow those versions to be read in his congregation. This is a good and Godly Pastor who cares for and loves the sheep, and a good steward of the Lord. He will recieve his just rewards in Heaven at the judgement seat of Christ. I praise and honour God for men who stand for the integrity and preservation of the words of the Lord, and thank and praise the Lord our God daily for men who have been given the truth concerning this matter, and the strength, courage and boldness that they have been given to share this with the flock, even under the intense pressures of the liberal churches of today, and the ways of the world . Unfortunately there aren't many of them today, and I can see a reflection of the disobediant children of Israel who would not listen to the prophets of God, but rather heaped unto themselves those teachings of false prophets, and look at the end of them? Is this where the churches today are headed?

There is not a unity of Spirit that I have seen on these threads concerning this issue (accept for those who hold to the truth, and those who hold to the deception). This is a divisive issue, which should say to us all, something in this issue is not of God, for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. There is not peace among many of the bretheren regarding this issue. The divisiveness, and the strife came about, as someone who is an mv advocate made mention of recently, about 35 years ago. Now ponder this: when did these modern versions become acceptable and widely used within the churches? This is where the division comes from, the modern versions, and it is not, nor can be from God Almighty himself.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Which ones? and How? You previously made mention that the MV's are taking Jesus out of the Bible and removing the blood of Jesus. That has been shown to be false. You say the MV's deny the deity of Jesus, and that has been shown to be false. You have yet to show that the MV's change any doctrine with valid proof. What you call omissions are only differences between one English Bible and another English Bible. You need to show what the source manuscripts (Greek and Hebrew) say and mean. You treat the KJV as the source and not as what it is - a translation of a source.

You, nor anyone else has proved it - yet, you continue to make the allegation.

Once again, no proof offered.

Same accusation as those long dead VulgateOnlyists made centuries ago (again, no proof offered). They were unfounded that and they are unfounded now. Those that held to the VulgateOnly killed an tortured translators that disagreed. And some KJVOnly advocates act like they would like to kill MV translators.

Yet another accusation with no proof (that we who use MV's are deceived). It could also go the other way. Just as those that held to VulgateOnly were the deceived ones. They opposed what God was doing to defend the scriptures from being dumbed-down and degraded by being translated in the vulgar tongues of English and German and French ect. They thought they were doing God's will in defending the perfect, majestic, beutiful, Latin Bible. Sound familar? Perhaps satan is working so hard to get us to focus on meaningless issues and stop us from doing what we are supposed to be doing. Hmmmmm.

 

Michelle wrote:

That statement would pretty much sum up how I feel about those who believe in King James Onlyism. (Hint: I would be among those who are not deceived.)

 

This interest me. Please describe how the Lord showed it to you. What scripture did the Spirit use to reveal this truth that the rest of us apparently can't see.

 

Michelle;

You seem to say that you are not deceived and others are telling you otherwise. The fact is somebody is deceived.

So God showed you... Many erroneous ideas have been credited to God. So God showed that to you without study? With no study and a little thought you have discredited the translations before you and those who have used them. How about a period of approximately 3000 years. You have made a proclamation that only the KJV is correct. Would that include its textual variants too?

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!


Scott, Larry and TC, did you all read the entirety of my post? I explained all your questions in it, and on other posts. I am sorry, that you all do not, nor can not see the evidence to show the errors and corruptions in the modern versions. They have been pointed out to you all before, but you choose to excuse them away. God has promised to preserve his words for every generation, and we are not to live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD. Eve was decieved by the subtlety of the serpent, and what was it that the serpent did? Yeah, hath God said? God's word(s) of truth were altered, which led to Eve's deception and ultimate sin and disobediance to God. WE are also told in various places to not add to God's words or take away from them. God's word is held above all, and will not pass away, they are eternal. Jesus Christ himself, and the apostles, often said "It is written" to edify, rebuke, reprove, etc. We see how important what "is written" is to defeat the wiles of the devil. Every word of God is pure, and every word of God is important, and every word should be accurately provided as authoritative in a book that calls itself the Holy Bible, the very words of God which is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. If you have a weak foundation, you will have a weak faith. It is as simple as that. The modern versions have been guilty of taking away from God's preserved word of truth, and weakening the strong truth of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, the atonement of our sins in His shed blood, etc. They also cast doubt upon what God has actually said and preserved, with inserting long standing and understood preserved words of God into footnotes. This is exactly mirroring what the serpent said in the garden to Eve: :Yeah, hath God said?". This is the evidence, and these are just but a few of the things the Lord Jesus Christ has shown me, and a few others on these threads, and other christians in the world today. Can a corrupt tree bringeth forth good fruit? By their fruits you shall know them. Prove all things, hold fast that which is good.

Deut. 8:3
Psalm 119:41-48
Matthew 24:35
Mark 4
Mark 8:34-38
John 6:63
John 14:22-26
John 17
2 Corinth. 6
2 Tim. 3
2 Tim. 4
Titus 1:1-9
Hebrew 4:12
James 2:19-26
1 Peter 1:23-25, 2:1-3
2 Peter 1:12-21, 2:1-2
2 Peter 3
1 John 2
Rev. 3:8-13
Rev. 6:9
Rev. 22:6-21

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

It does seem that the final authority of KJVOism is some mystical feeling or leading with no direct Scriptural proof.

Bro Tony

 

Michelle,

Once again, WHERE are these omissions & deletions & doctrinal weaknesses you keep refering to? If you're basing these groundless allegations on things like Gail Riplinger's charts, I've read "The Ripper's" New Age Bible Versions from cover-to-cover, and actually sat down with the KJV, NIV, and NASB side-to-side and compared the actual texts of the three versions to her charts. My conclusion?: She's never seen a verse in a version other than the KJV that she wasn't more than willing to misquote, distort or simply fabricate so that her pre-existing conclusions would win out. I've never seen quotes with so many ellipses as I have in her book- she frequently glosses over or omits enough words in a verse or passage to leave the impression that it says the exact opposite of what it actually does. And of course, her largely duped audience wouldn't be caught dead looking in the NIV or NASB to verify her claims, so they gullibly swallow her thesis hook, line, & sinker.
So please tell me that you've actually (first person) compared & seen these "omissions" and "doctrinal weakenings" for yourself, and you're not relying on things like Riplinger's works of fiction. And then why not actually provide some of this "evidence".

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

LarryN,

There are many other people who have taken this position, besides Gail Riplinger. None here are ever interested in anything anyone says, or has written regarding this (my) position. It is very sad indeed, that many only listen to one side of the issue, and never really look at the evidence given, in prayer and desire to know the real truth regarding this important matter. I have listed a few of those things in another post, on another thread just yesturday if you are interested in searching out the matter. Will Kinney has also done a wonderful job at sharing much information concerning this. There are many books published, and articles on the internet that are also available. I cannot do your discerning for you. You must have the desire for the real truth and take this to the Lord in prayer, if it is of important enouph issue for you.

I only own my KJV Bible and do not own any modern version except the NKJV which was given to me. [snipped] I see enouph of what has been shared of by others, to know that what these verions have left out is serious enouph to stay away from them and warn of them.

Are you now going to accuse me of taking my stance on this solely because of what other people have said and provided on it? If you do say this, you are VERY WRONG INDEED. This is something the Lord has convicted my heart of, and from many of the verses of scripture I just provided in my last post.

Love in Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour,
michelle

[ April 01, 2004, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]

 

Good grief Michelle... you seem like a nice sincere person but for the love of truth please wake up! You have not shown errors nor corruptions. You have shown that other versions are different from the KJV. You have arbitrarily chosen a standard then seemingly cannot fathom why we won't just blindly go along with your choice. The evidence and scholarship behind MV's is just as strong if not stronger than the evidence and scholarship behind the KJV.

The KJV is NOT the standard by which Bible versions are to be judged.

We have given you the reasons for the differences. That is not making excuses... there is no need to make excuses when you have legitimate rationale for making a choice.

And you know what? Neither of these promises was originally given in the words of the KJV. They were given in Hebrew and Greek. I have to confess that I cannot understand your lack of reasoning on things like this. You can understand that both the KJV and the original writings are the Word of God on the basis that they mean the same thing yet have a total disconnect with the fact that MV's are the Word of God because they mean the same thing too.

That is exactly what KJVO's do. They change/add to God's Word by saying that other versions are invalid without any proof at all. No one on our side here is saying "yeah hath God said" concerning the KJV... but your side does it continuously concerning other faithful translations of God's Word.

The please don't. The Bible doesn't say that only the KJV is the Word of God in English. If you want to claim that MV's have taken away or added to God's Word then please prove it from the evidence we have for the originals. Again, the KJV is not the standard.

Right. It didn't just pop into existence in 1611 or 1769.

That is why the evidence we have for the originals is the standard by which the quality of a Bible version is to be judged. God didn't speak the words of the KJV into existence. Those words were the scholarly choices of Anglican scholars.

No. It is the Word of God. Not words. There is a difference. You do not have the words that God gave. You have a translation of a collation of hand copies of copies of copies of copies of... the originals. All of these hand copies differ from one another.

If you have no foundation and call it faith then you have a superstition... a myth as robycop likes to put it.

 

Are you listening (reading) or do you think I am lying? I started out as a KJVO. When confronted with the evidence, I prayerfully considered both sides... and still do. However, the more I see from both sides and the more I pray about it, the more I am convinced that KJVOnlyism is not only a false doctrine but possibly the disease that will destroy fundamentalism in America. Truly Satan is disputing God's Word but it isn't our side that is doubting it... it is yours.

Here is what you, Will, or any other KJVO can do for me- lay a solid, factual premise down before you proceed to arguments. You can argue the differences between the KJV and MV's forever and all you will prove is that they are different. You have not proven that one or the other is closer to the original, God-inspired scripture... and your assumptions on the matter are non-authoritative.

It is, I have, and am absolutely convinced that KJVOnlyism is a false doctrine that must be confronted.

The Lord will not convict a person of something that is false and KJVOnlyism is demonstrably false. You are operating from a feeling... sorry but your feelings just don't carry the weight of scripture and historical fact.

Not a single one of those verses says anything about the KJV... not one. If you say they do then you are guilty of adding to scripture yourself.

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!


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ScottJ quoted:

No. It is the Word of God. Not words. There is a difference. You do not have the words that God gave. You have a translation of a collation of hand copies of copies of copies of copies of... the originals. All of these hand copies differ from one another.
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Scott,

This is the difference between you and I. You do not believe that God has preserved his words of truth, as He promised for every generation. I do. I faithfully believe that God preserved EVERY WORD OF GOD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD for those who love him, for they are what we are to live by. It requires faith. This I have faith in and believe it 100%. God has promised it, and he does not lie, he has done this. I do not have a wishy washy view of the plain and literal truths of the scriptures. I believe God, and trust Him, and know that what he has said (and every single word of it), has been done and that He has the power to do it accurately within all translations. You, however, must deny this great truth, in order for your stance and approval on those things that have caused you to even question it in the first place. God has in his providence and promises, preserved his words of truth in every language for every generation. The recieved text is that to which is what underlines the KJV, and the critical greek text which underlines the modern versions. These texts are different, and are the reasons for the differences in the KJV and the modern versions. Yes, I do compare from the KJV to the modern version, for they are translatlions of those underlying texts in our language. They differ, and they both cannot be God's pure word of truth.

If believing that God has preserved for his people, every single word that proceedeth out of his mouth for every generation, in every language, a myth, or a superstition, then that is your opinion, but it is not the truth. I believe the truth and you are the one believing the myth because of your deception concerning this issue due to the lack of faith in God's promises concerning this issue.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle, if preservation (the way you believe it) is true, where are the original greek and hebrew manuscripts. You do know that is what God actually promised to preserve right? The english language didn't even exist yet.