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Why I believe in the Eternal Son (Eternal Sonship)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Sep 19, 2020.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

    Genesis 12:7, "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, . . ."
    Genesis 17:1, ". . . the LORD appeared to Abram, . . . ."
    Genesis 18:1, "And the LORD appeared unto him . . . ."
    John 8:56, ". . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

    Isaiah 6:5, ". . . Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. . . ."
    John 12:41, ". . . Esaias, . . . he saw his glory, and spake of him. . . ."
     
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  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    so where in any of these verses that you quote, do we read of "the eternal sonship"?
     
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  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "Restore unto Me...."
     
  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    [Gen 1:26 NASB] 26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
    • God was plural (triune) in the beginning.

    [Mal 3:6 NASB] 6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

    [Heb 13:8 NASB] 8 Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday and today and forever.

    • God does not change, so for the “sonship” to be other than eternal would be to change the relationship within the Godhead.
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The issue is not that the Second Person of the Trinity is eternal or that He appeared to humans before His incarnation. The issue is that some wrongly claim the Second Person of the Trinity "became" the Son and thus was not eternally the Son. However, Hebrews is clear, the Second Person of the Trinity was referred to as "the Son" before the incarnation. (Hebrews 1:2)

    But what about Hebrews 1:5 and "today I have begotten you?" Here the idea is the Second Person of the Trinity was chosen to rule from David's throne, hence the firstborn heir. What some do is claim this "engendering" of an existent Second Person of the Trinity, instead refers to His creation or His becoming God's Son, rather than being the Son eternally.
     
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    makes no sense!
     
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  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Who appeard to Abraham in Genesis 12:7 as the LORD according to John 1:18? And was this after His incarantion or before when He appeard to Abraham? You do not agree with how I understand this, is your problem.
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    so how about some solid Bible evidence that shows Jesus is eternally the Son? Hebrews 1:5 is clear to me that "Sonship" was not eternal, but Incarnational. "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" Both OT references are here used for the same thing, the First Coming of Jesus Christ. The "this day" refers to the "Incarnation", and not as some suppose, the "Resurrection". Otherwise the use of "γεννάω" (begot) is pointless in this quote, and we would expect something like, "Raised", etc. The second is from 2 Samuel 7:14, "I will be his father, and he shall be my son", where the words are more akin with the LXX reading. "ἔσομαι", "will be", is the future of "εἰμί" (to exist), and would not include the past. This is Bible fact.
     
    #8 SavedByGrace, Sep 20, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
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  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    This is none other that malakh YHWH, translated as either, "The Angel of the Lord", or "The Messenger of the Lord", which is the Lord Jesus Christ in His pre-Incarnational Appearances in the OT. He is none other than YHWH Himself, though also distinguished from another Person, also called "YHWH". Exodus 3 and the Burning Bush is an excellent place to see malakh YHWH, and Moses.
     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It should be noted that Hebrews13:8 refers to the man Jesus Christ post resurrection, post incarnaton, same as Colossians 1:15 per Colossians 1:18.
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    No it does not! Jesus Christ is called malakh YHWH (The Messenger/Angel of the Lord) in the OT in many places. There are one or two references to "Son", which can be viewed as Prophecy.
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    My argument is that was then the Son, "which is in the bosom of the Father, . . ." per John 1:18.
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    You will find that the older and more attested reading for this verse, is as found in the ESV and others, "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.". There is no mention of "Son" here. "μονογενὴς θεὸς", "Unique God", is found in the P66 Greek manuscript of the 3rd century. The oldest Greek manuscript for the reading "μονογενὴς υἱὸς", is the Codex Alexandrinus, od the middile of the 4th century! "μονογενὴς θεὸς", was also known to some of the heretics in the 2nd century, who actually opposed the Deity of Jesus Christ, like, Valentinians (died A.D.160),and Origen (died 254). There can be no doubt that the textual evidence for "μονογενὴς θεὸς", is by far greater!
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The same corrupt reading the JWs use.

    "ο μονογενης υιος" is according to 99% of the texts.
     
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  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember saying anything about it 'making sense', to you.

    "And now, O Father, Glorify Thou Me with Thine Own Self with the Glory which I had with Thee before the World was." John 17:5
     
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  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Corrupt because you don't like what it says? or because you are a KJVO person? The textual evidence speaks for itself, and cannot be denied by an honest person!
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    you can see that it is "Glorious" position that Jesus shared eternally with the Father, even before the world was created, that Jesus here speaks of. There is no word here about "eternal Sonship"! How you people read into passages your theology!
     
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  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 9:6, which is Prophecy of the Incarnation/Brith of the Lord Jesus, says:

    "For to us a Child is born,
    to us a Son is given;
    and the government shall be upon His shoulder,
    and His Name shall be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Note how "Child" and "Son" are linked together, and the order they are in. Not Son...Child"; but the "Child", to be born, Who is the Son". Who can deny that these words are Prophetic to the First Coming of the Lord Jesus?
     
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  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    From: His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 1, Chapter 30

    "That the Son of God is a Person, and a Divine Person distinct from the Father and the Spirit, cannot be doubted;

    for since His Father is a Person, and Jesus is the "Express Image of His Person", He must be a Person too;

    and He must be the Express Image of Him, as He Himself is a Divine Person, the Son of God, and truly God;

    and not as he is man and mediator;

    not as he is man, or as having an human nature, for his Father never had any, and therefore he could not be the image of him in that respect;

    for though man is the image of God as to some qualities in him, yet is he never called his character or express image, much less the express image of any of the persons in the Deity:

    nor as Mediator, and in an Office Capacity, for his Father was never a Mediator, nor in an Office: it remains therefore that it must be the Express Image of His person, as He Himself is a Divine Person, abstracted from any consideration of His human nature, and of His Office.

    For as Plato {1} says, that which is like must needs be of the same species with that to which it is like.

    The definition of a Person agrees with Him: He is an Individual, Distinct, though not separate from the Divine Nature, He has in common with the Father and the Spirit;

    He Subsists of Himself in that Nature Distinctly, and Independently;

    is not a part of another, the Whole Fulness of the Godhead Dwells in Him;

    nor is His human nature, which He assumed in Time, a part of His Person, nor adds anything to His Personality;

    but being taken up into Union with His Person, subsists in it;

    He has Life in Himself, and is the Living God;

    is Intelligent, has Understanding and Will;

    Knows Himself, His Father and the Spirit, and all creatures and things, and does whatsoever He Pleases."
     
  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Yes, "Son", can be read, by some people.

    You have said that you can not read it.

    Proverbs 8: 30; "Then I was by Him, as One brought up with Him:
    and
    I was daily His Delight, Rejoicing always before Him";


    ( 1._16 ) THE COMPLACENCY AND DELIGHT GOD HAD IN HIMSELF, as God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit, Among and Between EACH DIVINE PERSON in The GODHEAD, BEFORE ANY CREATURE WAS CREATED. – Aware of The Godhead


    Proverbs 8:30;
    “Then I
    ( JESUS ) was by Him, ( GOD The FATHER )
    as One ( JESUS ) Brought Up with Him, ( GOD The FATHER )
    and I ( JESUS ) was Daily His ( GOD The FATHER’S ) Delight,
    ( JESUS ) Rejoicing Always before Him” ( GOD The FATHER ).
    ***

    [​IMG]

    AGAIN:
    “Then I was by Him, as One Brought Up with Him,
    and I was Daily His Delight, Rejoicing Always before Him.”

    ***
    JESUS Rejoiced Always before God The FATHER
    and was Daily GOD The FATHER’S Delight
    WHEN ?


    We may have The Eternal God of Heaven Reveal WHEN
    THIS REJOICING and DELIGHT by GOD THE FATHER
    and JESUS TOOK PLACE from the preceding verses,
    IN GOD’S REVEALED WORD, by THE ONE AND ONLY
    TRUE AND LIVING GOD WHO WAS THERE.


    JESUS Rejoiced Always before God The FATHER
    and was Daily GOD The FATHER’S Delight
    when there were no depths, no fountains abounding with water;
    before the mountains were settled, while as yet
    He had not Made the Earth
    (Proverbs 8:24-29)
    and
    GOD The HOLY SPIRIT
    is included, as a Member of
    THE ETERNAL TRIUNE GODHEAD.


    Aware of The GODHEAD 1.16.3a.

    First,
    The Delight and Complacency
    of the Father in the Son,
    is Declared by GOD, IN HIS OWN WORDS,
    in the following expressions; which are borrowed from the delight


    and pleasure parents take in their children;

    being “by” them, brought up” with them,
    nursed” up by them, playing” before them;


    which must be understood with a Decency becoming the Divine Persons,
    and not be strained beyond their General Design,


    which is to express the Mutual Delight of the Father and the Son
    in Each Other:


    “Then I was by Him”, JESUS WAS “BY” GOD The FATHER
    from Eternity Past, and before the World was Made.

    I” is a Person, as the pronoun is expressive of;
    is not “a nature”,


    I” is a Person and “I”, here, is not the Human Nature
    of Jesus Christ,
    which had not been Born, on Earth, in the Flesh

    and this “I” is not
    the Soul of the Human Being Jesus Christ,
    which then had no Existence;


    but this “I”,
    is JEHOVAH JESUS,
    a Divine Person, the Eternal JESUS “Logos”,
    JESUS the Word (John1:1) and JESUS The Wisdom of God.


    It is JEHOVAH JESUS, a Divine Person, the Eternal JESUS “Logos”,
    JESUS the Word
    and JESUS The Wisdom of God
    Who is THE ONE DIVINE PERSON WHO is SPEAKING ALL ALONG
    in this Passage of Scripture from Proverbs 8:12,
    in The DIVINE REVELATION FROM GOD;


    “I Wisdom”,
    etc.]

     
    #20 Alan Gross, Sep 20, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
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