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Why Jesus Said "I never knew ye" to Professing Believers?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Hark, Feb 13, 2021.

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  1. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Understand these verses for why Jesus would say that.

    Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. KJV

    Whenever a believer verbally denies Him, they will be denied. Whether they were threatened with death or a lie caused them to stop believing in Him, they will be denied by Him, but note verses 13 for the current state of former believers; He still abides !!!!

    2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. ~ KJV

    So what is meant by "I never knew ye"? It was addressing the believers that works iniquity.

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ~ KJV

    If you consider that any work on that foundation as an iniquity that denies Him which defiles the temple of God ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ) ( as one of the works of the flesh is heresy * Galatians 5:19-21 ) then Christ will deny them because of that iniquity denying Him that is on that foundation.

    Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. KJV

    So saved believers can deny Him by their works & not just by denying Him verbally for why He would deny knowing them. That is why we are to seek the good of the lost by calling them to go to Jesus Christ for help to confess them before men in spite of the threat of death or to see the truth in His words in exposing the lies that turned them away from Him so they can depart from iniquity & be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House, rather than be left behind as denied, only to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, but still in His House. Note scripture below.

    2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. ~ KJV

    So to avoid Him saying "I never knew ye, depart from me ye that work iniquity", saved believers should go to Him for help to depart from iniquity that deny Him so they can be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House rather than be denied by Him at the rapture to become damned as the vessel unto dishonor but still in His House.
     
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  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Note the use of the term "believers." Does this mean professing believers that Christ never knew? Or born anew believers, who God placed into Christ, and therefore intimately known by Christ? Will a born anew believer loose his or her salvation if they do something that constitutes "denying Him?"

    2 Timothy 2:10 says God will abide (remain) faithful to Himself, He will keep His word, His promises. It does not say if you ever professed Christ, you are saved forever.

    I never knew you is addressing professing believers whose faith was never credited as righteousness and therefore never transferred into Christ.
     
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  3. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    They cannot depart from faith unless they were in the faith.

    In relation to your reference of 2 Timothy 2:10, we see that even after denying Him thus He dines them, He still dwells in former believers.

    2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    So how you apply the latter part of verse 12, you have to weigh that in with verse 13 before saying they were never saved in the first place.

    Paul goes on to give an example of former believers in verse 18 but "nevertheless" is why we are still called former believers to depart from iniquity. because that foundation is still there as well as that seal of adoption.

    2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

    So those who are still in iniquity by the time the Bridegroom comes, they are damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House to be left behind & resurrected after the great tribulation, but still in His House for when they die during that fiery calamity on the earth or during the great tribulation following, their spirit will be present with the Lord in Heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:6-11
     
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Are you a millennial exclusionist?
     
  5. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Never heard of the term so what does that mean?
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Unrepentant sinful believers will go to outer darkness during the millennium
     
  7. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Not sure how they can when there is no outer darkness during the millennium, but unrepentant sinful believers left behind will go to outer darkness of the fiery calamity coming on the earth along with the coming great tribulation which is the hour of temptation that shall try all on the earth per that mark of the beast system to buy & sell in order to survive in the new world order..

    I believe when Satan is let loos from the pit after a thousand years, staging a rebellion for a short season, Those who join Satan will find themselves being cast out into outer darkness at the great White Throne judgment into the lake of fire, but...

    No. I have no idea what you are talking about so that is all new to me, brother. It sounds false from what you are telling me.
     
  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." ( Titus 1:16 ).

    So saved, Spirit-indwelt believers can be:

    1) Abominable to God, despite Ephesians 2:1-10,
    2) Disobedient to God, despite 1 Peter 1:14.
    3) and to every good work as a reprobate ( despite 2 Corinthians 13:5 )?

    I'll have to disagree, Hark.
    To me, there is no way a true believer can be considered as anything other than beloved of God, and made obedient by their new birth.

    In other words, to be born again carries with it the desire to ( ultimately ) be obedient sons and daughters...
    We don't seek to return to that which the Lord has called us out of.

    See Ephesians 4:17-24, 1 Peter 2:9, 2 Peter 2:22, and many other passages that detail what the Lord has commanded His children to be.
    Because He never knew them in the sense of Romans 8:29.
    He never knew them in the sense of John 10:27:
    " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

    He never knew them in the sense of Acts of the Apostles 15:18:
    " Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

    Those "works" being the ones that He created in Christ Jesus per Ephesians 2:10.
    Believers are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.


    But the ones who fell away?
    Became disobedient?
    Denied Christ by their works?

    I see that they were definitely not "wheat", but rather "tares" who fell away from the faith under trials, lusts, etc. ( Matthew 13:18-23, Matthew 13:36-43 ).
    They were never saved.:(
     
    #8 Dave G, Feb 13, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2021
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  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Jesus said, “I never knew you”. They were never saved. Salvation is about being in a right relationship with God.

    It is important to understand the self delusion of the people rejected by Christ.

    peace to you
     
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  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 5:3 provides Jesus promise. The idea that humans can evoke conditional salvation is one that comes from hell.
    God blesses and gives the Kingdom to those who recognize their incapacity to save themselves. They are the "poor in spirit."

    New International Version
    "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    New Living Translation
    “God blesses those who are poor and realize their need for him, for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.

    English Standard Version
    “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Berean Study Bible
    “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Berean Literal Bible
    "Blessed are the poor in the spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.

    King James Bible
    Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    New King James Version
    “Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    New American Standard Bible
    “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    NASB 1995
    "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    NASB 1977
    “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Amplified Bible
    “Blessed [spiritually prosperous, happy, to be admired] are the poor in spirit [those devoid of spiritual arrogance, those who regard themselves as insignificant], for theirs is the kingdom of heaven [both now and forever].

    Christian Standard Bible
    “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for the kingdom of heaven is theirs.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    "The poor in spirit are blessed, for the kingdom of heaven is theirs.

    American Standard Version
    Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Contemporary English Version
    God blesses those people who depend only on him. They belong to the kingdom of heaven!

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    English Revised Version
    Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Good News Translation
    "Happy are those who know they are spiritually poor; the Kingdom of heaven belongs to them!

    GOD'S WORD Translation
    "Blessed are those who recognize they are spiritually helpless. The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.

    International Standard Version
    "How blessed are those who are destitute in spirit, because the kingdom from heaven belongs to them!

    Literal Standard Version
    “Blessed the poor in spirit—because theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.

    NET Bible
    "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them.

    New Heart English Bible
    "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Weymouth New Testament
    "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for to them belongs the Kingdom of the Heavens.

    World English Bible
    "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Young's Literal Translation
    'Happy the poor in spirit -- because theirs is the reign of the heavens.
     
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  11. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 2:1-2 states in regards to the saved as no longer walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:, but it is in the past.

    Again... as long as they do not fashion themselves per the old sinful ways.

    1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: KJV

    That is in regards to reproving those who believe they can receive Christ again by a sign per 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 )

    Why warn His disciples to be ready or else then? Why is the consequence for defiling the temple of God is physical death ( 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ) but the spirit is saved in that day 1 Corinthians 3:15 in regards to 1 Corinthians 3:10-17?

    Why warned believers that God is not mocked in Galatians 6:7-8 by what they sow towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit Galatians 5:19-23?

    So we are accountable to what we sow towards the works of the flesh as we can get worse & worse & be overcome.

    2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. ~ KJV



    The word "might" in Romans 8:29 would suggest in light of the rest of scripture that not all will be worthy ( Luke 20:34-36 ) to be part of the firstfruits of the resurrection.


    John 10:1-5 speaks of those who climbed up another way in following a stranger's voice; hence seeking to receive the "Spirit" again from the Holy Spirit to get that tongue that comes without interpretation & thus assumed for private use as gibberish nonsense; a stranger's voice.

    But there is hope for those that follow the stranger's voice & not His voice in John 10:16 as He testifies that He must bring them as they shall hear His voice & be of the one fold & one Shepherd. Must is explained that He will lose nothing of all the father has given Him per John 6:38-40, but which last day will they be in? What harvest shall they receive their resurrection?

    Those resurrected as coming out of the great tribulation are not going to be like the firstfruits. They do not have a dwelling place in the city of God, but they will be representing Jesus & the City of God from all over the world in raising up the generations during the millennium reign. Only the power of the second death is not over them. That would suggest the first death; physical death still does. They will marry & have children in setting the example for the generations following. Well, That is how I see that is coming.

    That is why the prodigal son cannot get his inheritance back, but he is still son.


    Read on..

    Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. ~ KJV

    Now why instruct the new Gentiles believers unless this is in regards to discipleship; running that race, not salvation?

    That foundation was laid by Jesus Christ but not every believer is looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin in running that race. Not every work on that foundation is of Him, but it can be a work of iniquity for why believers need to look to their Good Shepherd in getting ready while running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to finish.

    They are saved because that foundation remains. It is the works as in the tares on that foundation that will get burned up & removed before they are accepted by Him in serving Him during the millennium reign of Christ.

    2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. ~ KJV

     
  12. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Are we not to run that race daily by looking unto the Author & Finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin? Hebrews 12:1-2

    Are we to condemn a professing believer when they sin or do we correct & if still refusing correction, excommunicate? Matthew 18:11-17

    So when Christ appears... if any saved believer has work on that foundation that denies Him ( Titus 1:15-16 ), they will be denied by Him to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven, but He still abides in the saints left behind. 2 Timothy 2:12-13
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Let me get this straight.
    You are saying our salvation is conditional based on our works and our loss of salvation is based on our works.

    How is your position any different than Judaism under the law? Your view seems to be the same thing that Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians.

    Of what value then is Jesus death on the cross if our salvation is secured by the works of the law?
     
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  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If we died with Him refers to being spiritually baptized into His death (Romans 6) and therefore born anew.

    Only those transferred into Christ are saved and have eternal life which means they cannot ever lose that life, otherwise it would not be eternal.
     
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  15. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    by God.
    Actually the contenders in this thread seem to base salvation on being obedient as proof that they are saved by God.

    Since I am saying those who profess Him but denied by Him for being workers of iniquity, & thus left behind are still His & thus still saved, then I am not promoting discipleship or that running that race as a means to obtain salvation, now am I?

    There are 2 kinds of eternal inheritance awaiting saved believers. 2 Timothy 2:20 & 1 Corinthians 15:38-40 The firstfruits & they that be Christ's at His coming 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. The firstfruits will be like the angels that never die & do not marry ( Luke 20:34-36 & have a place in the city of God in Heaven. John 14:1-3 & for those left behind in Revelation 22:19 & Revelation 20:1-6 where only the power of the second death is not over them, but the power of the first death still does. When comes the end when Jesus cast death into the lake of fire, then they will live forever.
     
  16. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Right; but they can lose their first inheritance for not being ready as found abiding in Him ( John 15:1-8 & Luke 12:40-49 ) or being willing to go ( Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:34-36 ) because they love this life more than to leave like Lot's wife in Luke 17:26-37 when the Bridegroom comes. It is like the prodigal son gave up his first inheritance for wild living, but after having lost everything, he will find that he is still son.

    So that foundation laid by Jesus Christ along with our seal of adoption is not going anywhere ( Ephesians 4:30 ), but we are to look to Jesus Christ as our Good shepherd to live that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ helping us to lay aside every weight & sin daily ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ) to not only avoid losing our rewards of crowns but from becoming a castaway. ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ) Even former believers are still called to depart from iniquity because that foundation remains as does His seal in 2 Timothy 2:18-21 . That is our love for the brethren that they too may obtain the eternal glory that comes with our salvation by being received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House by His grace & by His help 2 Timothy 2:10 as the faithful saying has Jesus Christ still abiding in former believers in verse 13 even when denied by Him for being in iniquity in verse 12 & left behind per 2 Timothy 2:11-13 altogether.
     
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Saved, yet denied? Your theory is not well supported in scripture.
    First the rapture is not taught in the Bible. It is a man-made concept of dispensationalists who have little understanding of the Covenants of God.
    You want Jesus to return? Preach the gospel to all nations.

    Mark 13:10
    And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations.

    Then pray that God redeems all whom he has given to Jesus so that Jesus can return.

    2 Peter 3:4-10
    They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
     
  18. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 14:6-7 is the first angel that heralds the everlasting gospel everywhere & then the end comes per the second angle heralding the result of the fiery calamity that Babylon USA has fallen by along with the rest of the western hemisphere in Revelation 14:8

    That is how you align the prophesy of revelations with Jesus's words.

    Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. KJV

    Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. ( apply 2 Peter 2:1-2 Peter 3:14 as enduring to be saved from what is coming on the earth)

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Apply that to Revelation 14:6-7 as it is on that angel not on us to accomplish that task for the end to come

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Now saints left behind with new believers are watched for this event during the great tribulation.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    God keeps His word, once an heir, always an heir, once a child of God, always a child of God, and we have the Holy Spirit indwelling as a pledge for our inheritance (the redemption of bodies - Romans 8:23)

    No person is ever "cast away" from their "salvation." But we can fail to earn rewards, and we can disqualify ourselves from public ministry. Say a Pastor becomes divorced because he was unfaithful spouse, he has thus disqualified himself from "eldership."
     
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  20. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Paul warned about not keeping his body under subjection by His grace & by His help in running that race by looking to the author & finisher of our faith daily to help us lay aside every weight &sin to avoid being a castaway & not just lose the reward of crowns.

    Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. ~ KJV

    1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    Explain castaway as used by Paul for what he is meaning since losing the rewards of crowns is not the only consequence for not running that race by faith in Jesus Christ.

    There is no loss of salvation but there is a loss of being that vessel unto honor in His House to become a castaway as that vessel unto dishonor but still in His House per 2 Timothy 2:20-21
     
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