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Why Jesus Said "I never knew ye" to Professing Believers?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Hark, Feb 13, 2021.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The Greek word translated as "castaway" in the KJV is "adokimos" (G96) and refers to something "unapproved." So Paul is saying he must be faithful or become disqualified for ministry.

    A "vessel of honor" is someone who is "useful to the Master." (2 Timothy 2:21). If we disqualify ourselves for ministry (being no longer useful to the Master) we are still saved and will enter heaven, perhaps as one escaping from a fire.
     
  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
    Again, I agree.

    But what born again believer, indwelt with the Holy Ghost and sealed unto the day of their bodily redemption,
    is truly going to want to fashion themselves according to the deceitful lusts?

    What born again believer,
    after reading or hearing their Saviour's precious words, is going to fall away?

    Willfully receiving God's words, heeding them and taking biblical correction are evidences of a believer, not an unbeliever.
    I'm afraid I don't understand your objections above.

    As I see it, the warnings are to a mixed crowd, in may cases.
    The Bible is read by not just God's children, but people who think that they are God's children and in reality are not.

    I believe that this is why there are "warning passages"...to warn those who think they are Christ's, to evaluate themselves.
    Warning passages like this:

    " By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." ( 1 Corinthians 15:2 )
     
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Sigh, the USA doesn't exist in the book of Revelation. The US is not the center of the Bible message.
     
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  4. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    How you apply those 2 references is not in alignment when the call to depart from iniquity will make a vessel unto dishonor, a vessel unto honor.

    The first application needs to be discern with Him & not man's knowledge about how Paul is talking about God's judgment when losing the rewards of crowns & that has to include at that time, the consequence of being a castaway at the rapture event.

    In John 15:1-8 noting John 15:6 is the consequence for not abiding in His words as His disciples in being fruitful hence cut off from the vine & into the fire, but what fire is that since Jesus can lose nothing of all the Father has given Him per John 6:38-40.

    Discerning what that fire is.. one can discern with Him as referring to the fire being sent on the earth by Jesus when He cuts off unrepentant believers as not ready to have their portions with unbelievers that are remaining behind to face this calamity coming on the earth whereby one third of the earth is burned up. Luke 12:40-49 is a warning to believers about being cut off.

    2 Peter 3:1-18 is about enduring to the end as in holding to their steadfastness & not be drawn away by the wicked to escape that fiery calamity prophesied to come on the earth. This salvation believers are to seek after is to be saved from that.

    That is how they all align for why Jesus is warning believers as living as His disciples or else.

    Let those that have ears, hear what the Lord is saying to the churches in getting ready or else.
     
  5. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Those born again believers that did not root themselves in His words as His disciples shall be cut off ( John 8:30-36 & John 15:1-8 ). That is why Jesus exhorted His disciples to teach others in being His disciples. Matthew 28:18-20

    Discipleship is about running that race Hebrews 12:1-2 & the consequences for not running that race is more than the loss of rewards of crowns, but the risk of becoming a castaway. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Disciples that do not abide in His words are cut off per verse 6 of John 15:1-8 They cannot be cut off unless they were part of the vine. They cannot be overthrown of their faith by an error unless they were in the faith to begin with per 2 Timothy 2:18-21 Since those who depart from iniquity becomes vessels unto honor in His House, then you have to discern with Him why the vessels unto dishonor are in His House? Are they the reprobates that built on that foundation, iniquity whereby they shall suffer a physical death, the destruction of their bodies which is the temple of the Holy Spirit, but their spirit is still saved in that day? 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 Could they as reprobates be the vessels unto dishonor that are still in His House, even former believers ( 2 Timothy 2:11-13

    Pray for wisdom from the Lord because like it or not, what you are saying is not aligning with all of His words. I believe the parable of the sower is what you are not discerning as referring to why one did not receive the seed ( salvation ) & yet others did but only one bear fruit manifold whereas the other 2 did not though they had received the seed hence Christ Jesus. Since the truth of that parable cannot be understood unless we are given ears to hear, then we need to pray to get ears to hear.
     
  6. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Pray for ears to hear, brother. We have to do that for parables, so we need to do that for His words too in prophesy.

    If you consider Revelation testifying to one third of the earth that gets burned up... do you not find it coincidental that the entire wester hemisphere is one third of the earth when in the beginning, the land mass was one continent ? Do you not apply the fact because USA is not in the end times prophesy as being one of the nations of armies marching against Jerusalem at the end of the great tribulation is why USA is fallen Babylon as in "we the people" in identifying with Babylon as the daughter of Babylon because it is not there at the end of the great tribulation to be a part of the world's armies matching on Jerusalem?

    Revelation 18:1-18 describes USA because there is no other nations surrounded by water for merchants of the sea to be cut off because of the smoke of her burning & the plagues within. Be kind of hard to apply that to any other nations in the world as if being the center of commerce. Once USA falls, there would be a need for a New World Order for the rest of the world in gathering resources & using the mark of the beast system to buy & sell as a means to survive under that NWO. So Revelation 18:1-18 describes USA without naming her.

    And her destruction takes place per the second angel in Revelation 14:8 after the first angel herald the everlasting gospel everywhere so every one has heard the gospel in Revelation 14:6-7. Then you have the 3rd angel warning after that fiery calamity that burns one third of the earth with fallen Babylon, of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell which is the lake of fire in Revelation 14:9-12.

    Those 3 angels are the ones that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth because everyone will know the gospel, then the rest of the world will know of fallen Babylon for why the NWO has to come but they will also know the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to survive in that coming NWO and that is the lake of fire.

    And the irony of Revelation 14:1-5 as a testimony of who makes up Jesus's personal choir in Heaven that has been redeemed from among the living on earth ; hence the rapture; should not also be missed as happening before the 3 angels are sent.

    So pray to the Lord for ears to hear because wisdom can only come from the Lord in how to apply His words from parables or prophesy or His words in discerning good & evil by in the KJV as the Bible that kept His words because they loved His words to keep the meat of His words for how we can discern good & evil with His help by. John 14:23-24 & John 15:20

    1 Corinthians 3:2 is proof how some saved believers are not ready for the meat but milk & why some are dull of hearing.

    Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. ~ KJV

    Since wisdom is from the Lord, then we have to ask Him for help in discerning & applying His words. James 1:5 & Hebrews 4:12-16
     
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Hark,
    One does not "root oneself";

    Rather, we as believers are rooted because God uses His servants to plant us, water us and He then gives the increase ( 1 Corinthians 3:6 ).
    He prunes His good trees so that they will bear more fruit ( John 15:1-2 ).
    He takes away the bad trees that bear bad fruit at the judgment ( John 15:6 ).

    That is why Jesus exhorted the churches in the epistles to "work out" their salvation with fear and trembling...
    Because many in the visible body of Christ are not what they think they are.
    The Lord does not cast away those that are His sheep ( John 6:37 ).

    In 1 Corinthians 9:18-27, Paul desires to run a good race, not so he avoids becoming a castaway ( disqualified ) from God, but in the eyes of men...
    Especially his brothers and sisters.
    Also, the "consequences" for not running that race with patience are that the person is not saved and never truly was.

    In other words, all true believers will run their race.
    All false "believers" will fail to run it, will fail to bring forth spiritual fruit that is pleasing to God and will fail in their trials.
    They will ultimately show themselves to be what they really are:

    The children of disobedience who love this world and its ways and really do not love the Lord Jesus to the exclusion of all else.
     
    #27 Dave G, Feb 14, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    They were part of the vine in that they professed Christ, took part in being persecuted for His name's sake,
    and partook in all other aspects of being identified with Him.

    But He never knew them and they were never "of" His sheep.
    Again, per the parables of the sower and tares, there are those who believe and then fall away, and there are those who continue on in the faith.
    Many who hear the word believe for a time, and then fall away during various trials of faith.

    Only the ones who endure to the end are saved.

    All of them were "in the faith" in that they professed Christ and self-identified with Him.
    But not all of them continued in the word to show that they were His disciples in deed ( not just in their profession ).
    See John 8:31-32.
    Romans 9:22-24 tells us that God makes people vessels;

    Either vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory, or vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.
    We don't make ourselves vessels of honor or dishonor.

    Again, "former believers" are just that...former "believers".

    God's children do not abandon their hope, even in the face of death.
    Stephen is a good example, IMO.
     
    #28 Dave G, Feb 14, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I thank you for your words and I will consider them carefully.
    However, I see that what you are saying is not aligning itself with all of His words.

    How we receive the seed is ultimately not dependent upon us.
    It's dependent upon God and has always rested in His purposes according to election.
    He prepares the "soil" of our hearts...
    Seed ( His words ) that fall on bad soil will never bring forth good fruit.
    Seed that falls on good soil will always bring forth good fruit.

    A good tree brings forth good fruit, and a bad tree bad.
    Even if a bad tree ( professing believer ) professes with the lips but in works they deny Him, they are still a bad tree.
    Bad trees, whether false brethren or false teachers, are known by their fruits ( Matthew 7:15-20 )
    Here is a list of those fruits...Galatians 5:19-23.

    His children will receive that seed ( the word of God ) and will never fail in their trials, while the devil's children will "receive it" and then eventually show their true colors by failing in one way or another to prove themselves as God's real children.
    They will never bear true spiritual fruit and they will never endure to the end because they were never truly in the faith and being pruned by the Father to bring forth more fruit.

    What they "had" will be taken away, while what the children of God have will be added to ( Matthew 13:10-12 ).

    God's children are precious to Him and are the heirs of eternal life.

    Not one of them will ever be treated as "second rate" due to their performance,
    but will rather overcome the world, the flesh and the devil because:

    " Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world." ( 1 John 4:4 ).

    Finally, God's children are given ears to hear...
    It is given unto them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God ( Matthew 13:10-11 )..
    It is given to them to both believe and to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 )

    They do not pray that they will be given those ears to hear or to be given the privilege of believing.
     
    #30 Dave G, Feb 14, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
  11. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 13;18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

    22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

    23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. KJV

    One root themselves by understanding scripture to grow thereby & bear fruit. That is the whole point about abiding in His words as His disciples to bear fruit; not for salvation that was received by believing in Him, but for bearing fruit as His disciples.

    John 8:.30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. KJV

    2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. ~ KJV

    Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. ~ KJV

    How many today has evangelists giving altar calls for public witness of salvation in these crusades but hardly follow up in discipling new believers? These are saved believers that have received the words but because they are not rooted in the word to discern the lies of the evolution theory, they are offended & turn away from the truth in His words & thus Him as well, in becoming former believers. But He still abides for why we are to call them to go to Him for help to see the lies in the evolution theory & the truth in His words so they can continue to grow in Him & His words in being fruitful as His disciples & be received by Him as vessels unto honor in His House rather than denied by Him in becoming vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation when they shall be resurrected..
     
  12. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    Amen! Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

    These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

    John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.

    These many people were not true converts. *Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity."

    God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Christ (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers and all unbelievers apart from the righteousness of God are seen in the eyes of God as workers of iniquity because all of their sins remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.

    Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
     

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  13. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Again, those saved believers that deny Him to save their own lives are still saved even though they will be denied by Him when the Bridegroom comes. If they repent before the Bridegroom comes, they will not be denied by Him in Heaven.

    You have to explain how you apply 2 Timothy 2:11-13 because after being denied in 2 Timothy 2:12, the faithful saying is that even if they believe not, He still abides. 2 Timothy 2:13 Do note the wish for the brethren, even the lost ones.

    2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. KJV

    Then after Paul gave an example of former believers... He still say that they are still called to depart from iniquity because the foundation remains as that seal of adoption does if they wish to avoid being received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House in 2 Timothy 2:18-21.

    2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. KJV

    Ask for wisdom from the Lord because I cannot help you see that truth in His words. James 1:5-6
     
  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, Hark, but there's something being lost in the "translation" and our exchange here.

    I see from God's word that it is not up to evangelists to follow up and disciple God's children...
    It is up to the Lord.
    Unlike in the Old Testament where the pastors and teachers were being held responsible by God for the spiritual welfare of His people Israel, under the new covenant of His grace, all of His children are taught by God Himself ( Isaiah 54:13, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:7-13, John 6:45 ).

    Their spiritual welfare as children is not and never was dependent upon anything outside of their loving Father and His care for them.
    In other words, God uses His teachers and preachers to disciple them, so they will invariably be properly discipled no matter what.

    In addition, God's people do not become offended and turn away...

    Rather, the devil's children ( "tares" masquerading as "wheat" ), who were never God's to begin with, become offended and turn away.
    It is happened to them as the true proverb...
    The dog returns to the vomit, and the sow that was washed to its wallowing in the mire ( Proverbs 28:11, 2 Peter 2:22 )...
    Proving that they were never born again.

    He that is of God hears God's words...He that is not, does not ( John 8:43-47 ).
    It seems to me that you are holding to man's will and not God's when it comes to who abides and who does not.
    I clearly see that He creates the vessels ( Romans 9:22-24 ), we don't create ourselves.

    We as believers abide and bring forth good fruit because we are attached to the vine;
    False believers do not because they never really were.
    I have the Spirit for that Hark ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ), but I thank you for your advice.
    This is my final reply to you in this thread.

    I wish you well, sir.
     
    #34 Dave G, Feb 14, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
  15. Shirley J

    Shirley J New Member

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    so all the scriptures that says you are sealed; no one can pluck out of is hand; you are a child of God' where did you read we can be no going into the rapture with Him, why would any believer deny Christ, that would leave believers with no hope if they couldn't repent of sins and wonder if they are a Christian,
     
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  16. Shirley J

    Shirley J New Member

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  17. Shirley J

    Shirley J New Member

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    I believe this way: When I accepted Christ into my life, He let me become a child of God, He let me be an heir of God, He protects me and loves me the way I am, all the scriptures I read where no man can pluck us out of His hand, means not even I can, I'm His and I will be in His kingdom. Why would a believer deny Him, Peter did 3 times and repented, why wouldn't believers that did this awful thing not repent, the Holy Spirit lives within me, He would let me feel my mistake, God forbid me ever to deny Him, But I did think will I be able to not take the mark and let my kids starve, will that was answered also, Jesus is coming soon and us Christians will go with Him. This is my belief,
     
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  18. Shirley J

    Shirley J New Member

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  19. Shirley J

    Shirley J New Member

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    I think if we belong to God now we always will be, but time is so short why worry about what man or woman think, we need to spread the word and let people know time is short, we are seeing prophecy even here now in our American home place, we listen to what man says, we do not have time to listen to man and God, God says get out and tell the people, says Jesus is coming soon, the rapture is mentioned lots of place in the bible. The word Rapture maybe not, but think what does rapture means, a calling away as Paul, said. We need to seek God's wisdom and quit tearing the bible apart, reading all the vs. in a chapter before we take out a few things, its very dangerous to people not to read Revelation, God will give you understanding if your serious about His Word, and He will point you to someone to help you with the understanding. But I feel what God wants from us now is to talk to everyone we can, write letters to past friends, ask them if God is in their lives and are they ready to go Home, I'll be 83 if I live to June, so I may go before Jesus comes back for us, but if so I'm ready to go Home no matter. I shudder to think I wasn't read years ago,God has had mercy on me
     
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  20. Shirley J

    Shirley J New Member

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