Why just two camps?

1 Timothy 2:3-4

"This is good and acceptable in the sight ofGod our Savior who DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH."

I guess Paul didn't quite have his predestination theories worked out at this point. Or maybe we've terribly misunderstood Romans 9.

Dave

 

2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, NOT WISHING FOR ANY TO PERISH BUT FOR ALL TO COME TO REPEPNTANCE."

I guess Peter hadn't read Romans 9 yet.

Dave

 

David, David, David,
You are skimming over the words, desires and not willing.
We agree that God wants folks to be saved. Otherwise why the cross?
That does not mean He will save all.
Otherwise the cross means nothing.
You are ignoring the plain fact that millions on this earth alive today, and perhaps billions who have lived in the past, have rejected God. Rom. 1-3.
Are you saying God will save them anyway?
That is totally contrary to the plain revealed will of God. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." But you say this is false? They won't really die. They will be saved in the end. Then why oh why did Jesus say "he that believeth not is condemned already" and then go to the cross? Just to reverse Himself? Ludicrous, simply ludicrous.
In His service;
Jim

 

Jim, Jim, Jim:

Please re-read my post. I have said no such thing.In fact I am quoting scripture with words that are not hard to understand at all. These passages say it is not God's will for any to perish. This does not mean none will, but it should forever end any speculation that because God predetermines some for salvation and a life of service, as he did Paul, or maybe even you and me, he also predetermines some for damnation, or that because he has not predestined some, they cannot be saved. The passages I have refered to say clearly that God desires all to be saved, not just some. If all who are to be saved are predestined for it, there is no need for evangelism, no need for missions, and I might add, no need for the cross, for the cross is God's demonstration of his love toward all of us who are sinners, attempting through it to reconcile us. The death of Jesus is the surest evidence that God's love is universal and salvation is freely offered to all. To accuse God of intending only for a select few, of which you and I no doubt belong, is to limit his love and to limit the power of the cross.

By the way, the passage from 2 Peter is best translated "will" not "wish". The biggest problem with Calvinism is that it implies because God wills something it absolutely has to happen. God wills that we be saved and acts to make it possible. He never wills that anyone reject his salvation. But people do.

Dave

 

Now you have been a bit more clear. Thanks David.
I apologize. It appeared as though you were espousing universalism, as in, everybody is saved ultimately. I was refuting that point.
My fault, I guess.
In His service;
Jim

 

Thank you Jim, but I was not espousing anything in my original post. I just quotes scripture that is saying quite clearly that God desires all to come to salvation, therefore the idea that only those whom God predestines, or elects, can be saved. I accept and appreciate your apology, but how in the world did you come to the conclusion that I was espousing universalism?

I do not believe in universal salvation, meaning God just up and decides to let the Nazis and the Klan into heaven when they still want to kill all the Jews and the Blacks. I believe in judgement. I believe in God's righteous wrath.

While at this, let me point out one other key passage that I think reveals God's will regarding who is to be saved. Look at Philippians 2:9. It is part of the kenosis hymn of the early church. It clearly says that God did what he did in Jesus so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, and every tounge should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. It does not say every knee will, or every tounge will, but it clearly states the will of God in Christ is that all do. Thus free will has a legitimate place in God's plan after all.

 

Pastor Larry,
I would agree that the term "Biblicist" is not helpful. Then you have to find out what the Bible "teaches" because everybody is a "Biblicist" in their own eyes. The terms Calvinism and Arminianism are believed by both their adherents (even those who claim to take a middle road, are really four point Arminians)to be Biblical.


Charles Haddon Spurgeon, the famous Baptist preacher of nineteenth century London, said

"I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified unless we preach what is nowadays called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism. Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel . . . unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; not unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it on the special, particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and allows the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."

I would suggest coming to the Calvinism/Arminianism board and viewing the posts and interacting.

May God bless you