Featured Why Purgatory is not in the Bible - it does not exist

annsni,on the first Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came upon Christ’s followers. The apostolic message was proclaimed in a way that allowed each listener to hear of the mighty acts of God in his own language. Luke tells us that Peter "testified with many other arguments" (Acts 2:40). We don’t know exactly what arguments Peter used on that day, but we are told he exhorted his listeners: "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation" (Acts 2:40). Peter’s message was accepted by 3,000 people who were baptized and who devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles, to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread, and to the prayers. "Awe came upon everyone" (Acts 2:43).

 

annsni,Jesus spoke only the following to His Apostles -You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come to you, and you shall be my witnesses [ Apostles only] in Jerusalem and all Judea and Samaria and to the ends of the earth ' Acts 1:8

The Apostles guided by the Holy Spirit created and shaped the first Christian community which is the Church.

 

annsni, The Spirit promised by the prophet Joel (Joel 2:28-32) is the very Spirit who on Pentecost comes down on the apostles and fills them with his grace; among them is the Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus (2:3-4). The Acts show that the apostles saw the Holy Spirit as a person distinct from the Father and the Son, though he shares in the same divine nature. Hence to lie to the Holy Spirit, as Ananias and Sapphira did, is the same as lying to God himself (5:3). Even the apostles' preaching is the work of the Holy Spirit, for it is really he who speaks through the mouth of the disciples (4:8; 11:28). The Holy Spirit also gives instructions to Philip (8:29) and to Peter (10:19).

The most important decisions of the Church, as for example those taken at the Council of Jerusalem, are decisions of the Holy Spirit and of the apostles (15:28). Apostolic activity begins at his express command (13:2-4). He guides the apostles, or restrains them (16:6); he appoints the bishops (20:28) and it is he who works the miracles (10:46; 19:6). Therefore, those who are not aware of his existence, even though they may believe in the Father and in the Son, cannot yet be considered true disciples of his (19:2-6).

The Acts speak of a real presence of the Holy Spirit, a permanent, not a passing presence (such as charisms) in the soul of every Christian as soon as he is baptized (2:38; 5:32). He transforms and sanctifies those in whom he dwells. His interior presence, vital and profound, spreads throughout the world through the sacraments which the Church administers. Confirmation is one of these sacraments (Acts 8:15-17).

 

I would really like some Godly counsel. I have read that Indian symbols like the dream catch are of the occult. I have rented a room in a home and the owner has a lot of Indian Art. she has 2 Dream Catchers. She is not a Christian but a very nice lady. I hope to be a plant seeder of Gods word. However, what do you think of this situation?


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This thread is about: Why Purgatory is not in the Bible--it does not exist.

As far as I can tell your last post on this subject was back on page three:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2213584&postcount=24

My response to that post is on the same page here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2213686&postcount=27

Perhaps we should get back to the topic of the thread.

 

I will get back to the OP on Purgatory as soon as I show annsni that only the apostles received the Tongues of Fire.

Improbable Claim #2

They were in a very large house where 120 people could all sit.

Comment
•This is possible, but improbable. How many houses have you seen in the modern day could seat that many? How much less so in that day?
•In Acts 2:15, when the 120 met, it does not specify where they met.
•The apostles and possibly their wives were in the upper room of Acts 2:13. There is nothing in the text that makes it clear the 120 met there.

Unreasonable Claim #3

(Acts 2:14-15) When Peter explains the tongues speaking, and he is described as “standing up with the eleven” and says “these are not drunk, as you suppose”, he is really referring to the 120 who are not mentioned, instead the eleven who are mentioned.

Comment

The Holy Spirit is a good communicator. If He wanted us to think of the 120 speaking, do you think He would have said 120 instead of eleven?

 

The context of {1 Cor 3 } deals with members of the church that Jesus left for all of us; it deals with Corinthian Christian believers. {1 Cor3:3 } tells us that some of these Corinthian Christians were falling into sinful imperfections and offenses against God. Some of these bad works or sins are identified in {1 Cor 3:3 }as strife, divisions and envying.

{1 Cor. 3:3 }“… for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?”

So the context of :1 Cor 3} deals with the different kinds of works of believers; some of them are not so good. These different kinds of works (good and bad) are described in { 1 Cor.3:12.}

{1 Cor. 3:12-13} “Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.”

There are good works, which are called: gold, silver and precious stones. These signify a better or more perfect adherence to the Gospel of Christ. Then there are other works, which are not so good. These bad works or sins included unnecessary quarrelling, strife, jealousy and divisions (as mentioned above). These are described as: wood, hay and stubble. These are the works that are burned in {1 Cor. 3:15}, for which the man suffers loss or punishment; but he is saved, yet so as by fire.

This context fits perfectly with the Catholic teaching on Purgatory. The Council of Lyons II defined Purgatory this way: Council of Lyons II : “Because if they die truly repentant in charity before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and omitted, their souls are cleansed after death for purgatorial or purifying punishments…”

Purgatory is not for those who have died in the state of serious (i.e. mortal) sin. All such persons go to Hell, as is made clear in{ Gal. 5:19-21, 1 Cor. 6:9, and Eph 5:5-8}. Purgatory is for those of the true faith who have been forgiven for their sins, but have yet to make full satisfaction for the sins they have committed.

Therefore, in {1 Cor. 3:12,} the wood, hay and stubble (which are burned) signify the works of a man who has died in the state of justification and has been forgiven of any mortal sins he might have committed. He is therefore eventually saved, but he hasn’t made satisfaction for sins committed after baptism.

THE CASE OF DAVID IS AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF A MAN WHO HAS BEEN FORGIVEN OF HIS SIN, BUT HASN’T MADE FULL SATISFACTION FOR IT

A great example of a man who has been forgiven of his serious sin, but hasn’t made satisfaction for it, is found in the case of David. In {2nd Samuel 11} {2 Kings 11}, we read that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba. David also had her husband killed. These are mortal sins. If David would have died in that state, he would have gone to Hell. {1 Cor. 6:9 } shows us that no adulterers or murderers will enter Heaven. But David repented of his sin when convicted of it by Nathan in {2 Sam 12.}

{2 Sam. 12:13} “And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, the Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.”

The Lord took away David’s sin, and Nathan said that he would not die. This means that he would not eternally die. The guilt of the sin was forgiven because David truly repented and turned from it, but was that the end of it? No, full satisfaction for this mortal sin had not been made. We read in {2 Sam 12:14-15 }that David had to suffer the loss of his child to make satisfaction for his sin – a sin which had already been forgiven.

{2 Sam 12:14-15 }“… because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. And Nathan departed unto his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.”

This provides undeniable proof that the guilt of a sin of a believer can be forgiven without the entire punishment being taken away. The Council of Trent put it this way:

it is absolutely false and contrary to the word of God that the guilt [of a sin] is never forgiven by the Lord without the entire punishment also being remitted. For clear and illustrious examples are found in the Sacred Writings { Gen. 3:16 ; Num. 12:14; Num 20:11; II Kings 12:13 etc. }

In this citation from the Council of Trent, we see references to numerous places in Scripture where a sin is forgiven without the entire punishment also being remitted. The example from{ Num. 20} should be quoted.

{Num 20:11-12} “And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. And the Lord spoke unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.”

When Moses, in obedience to God’s command, struck the rock in order to miraculously bring forth water, there was a certain level of hesitation in the act or in the manner in which he and Aaron presented it to the people. A commentary explains it: “The fault of Moses and Aaron, on this occasion, was a certain diffidence and weakness of faith; not doubting of God’s power or veracity; but apprehending the unworthiness of that rebellious and incredulous people, and therefore speaking with some ambiguity” (Douay-Rheims Commentary).

As a result, God told Moses and Aaron that they would not be the ones to bring the people into the promised land. This was their punishment, even though they remained in God’s favor. This punishment was fulfilled. It was Joshua and Caleb who led the people into the promised land.

Nothing impure shall enter Heaven-

This kind of satisfaction for the remaining punishment due to forgiven sins is often done on Earth by good works and prayers, by suffering trials and tribulations, and by a more perfect adherence to the true faith. If such satisfaction is not done on Earth, it is and must be done in Purgatory – assuming that the person dies in the state of grace (justification). The satisfaction must be done because the Book of Rev, the Apocalypse, makes it clear that nothing impure shall enter Heaven.

{Rev. 21:27 }“There shall not enter into it anything defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.”

We see the same thing in the Book of Hebrews.

{Heb 12:14} “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.”

Now it must be emphasized that Purgatory is not for those who die in mortal sin or outside the true faith. It’s only for those who die in the state of grace, which is also known as the state of justification. It’s for those who die in grace, but haven’t satisfied for the temporal punishment due to their forgiven mortal or venial sins, which were committed after baptism.

The Bible Teaches That There Are Mortal Sins And Lesser { Venial Sins }

Mortal sins destroy the state of justification. That’s why {Gal 5:19-21, 1 Cor. 6:9, and Eph. 5:5-8 }teach that people who commit such mortal sins lose “their inheritance” in Heaven (justification). Examples of mortal sins are fornication, murder, drunkenness, lying, cheating, stealing, fraud, theft, masturbation, looking at pornography, giving full consent to impure thoughts, homosexuality, heresy, idolatry, violating the commandments, etc. If people die in the state of mortal sin, they will be damned.{ 1 John 5:16} distinguishes between sins which lead to death and sins which don’t.

 

Apparently this post is being plagiarized from this site:

http://www.symbianize.com/showthread.php?t=105597&page=26

 

Rev.Mitchell, is this the best you can do with my post:
"Apparently this post is being plagiarized from this site":

Sorry ,no way.
I clicked on to that site that you claim I plagiarized from, and realized that it was in a foreign language that I do not understand, if it was Gaelic I may have been able to have read and understood some of it, but truthfully I haven't a clue. One suggestion to you is that if you really truthfully want to find out what the Catholic Church teaches in order to answer Catholics correctly is to click on authentic Catholic web-sites, no wonder you write answers as you have been. Now please try and refute my post. Unless the best you can do is by a diversion.

 

Where was the room? How big was the place.
It was very big. How do we know? Just keep reading:

Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

The Temple was a huge structure and apparently they had one of the rooms off one of the walls of the Temple. Remember this was the Feast of Pentecost. Where else would you have ca. 100,000 Jews gather?
Where else would a room have access to preach to 100,000 Jews but from a balcony facing the courtyard of the Temple?
The Jews actually tolerated them for at least a few days, meeting in the Temple, but it didn't last too long.

 

NO!

paul weote to us that IF one does not have, has not received the promised Holy Spirit, they are NOT of God, and peter Himself said that Cornilius and his group received tghe SAME Holy Spirit JUST as they the Apsotles had!

the Church of jesus was and is not the RCC, as His church existed way before the church of rome ever did!

 

No, this is the church at Corinth and it does not typify "The Church" or every church. It is an answer to a letter written by the believers from the Corinthian church, and it is applicable to them alone, although much of its teaching we can apply to ourselves, there is some we cannot.
Paul answers this:
1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me...
"the things whereof you wrote unto me..."
And now in chapter three he is addressing one of those "things" or problems.

The problem was carnality (vs.1-3), which led to divisions (vs.4,5).
In verses 6-10 he gives an illustration of a farmer sowing seed. We are laborers. Some sow. Some water. But God gives the increase. We must all work. We have different works to do. But God will bless the work as long as that work is done for the Lord.

Verse 11 is key.
They must build upon the foundation which is Jesus Christ.
The foundation is not Peter; it is not the RCC; it is not "The Church"; it is Christ, and only Christ. The teachings of Christ are found in the Bible, the Word of God. This brings us back to sola scriptura. The foundation is Christ.

You are wrong. Sin is not judged here, but works. The believers' sin has already been judged. It was judged at the cross. Jesus has atoned for it already.
John 19:30 "It is finished." The payment for sin has been settled. God has been satisfied. The atonement for sin has been made. There remains no more sacrifice for sin. Jesus paid it all.
Thus salvation is by grace through faith. It is the free gift of God. I simply must accept it by faith. Eternal life is a gift, not something to be worked for. If I think I must work for it then it is not a gift and it will not be granted to me. It is an insult to God's work on the cross. Jesus paid it all. We did nothing. We do not merit salvation. We do not deserve it. It is a gift to be received by faith.
Thus in 1Cor.3:11ff, there is no sin being judged. Our works, not our sins are being judged. If they are good (gold, silver, precious stones), they will survive the fire and will be purified. We will be rewarded. If they are not good (perhaps done in a wrong attitude or for the wrong reason) we will suffer loss of reward, for the works--represented by wood, hay and stubble--will be burned up in the fire. They are works. Works are being judged not sin. My sin has already been judged long ago.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

1. There is no Purgatory in the Bible.
2. Councils don't write the Bible or Bible doctrine. The Bible defines it.
3. This Council came up with a heretical philosophy not a Biblical doctrine.
4. Neither Purgatory nor penance can be found in the Bible. People have been led down a road of damnation because of such heresy.

I have to go. I will answer more later.

 

You mean like King Solomon? The Bible says about this king:
First--He was the wisest man that ever lived apart from Christ.
God blessed him richly.
However:
1 Kings 11:3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
--And yet, there is no sign of King Solomon ever repenting of his polygamy even though it is directly against the perfect will of God, and it turned his heart away from Jehovah toward idolatry.
Is then, King Solomon in Purgatory, so-called? Is that your belief?
--That is not what the Bible teaches. It is eisigesis. It is reading into scripture things that are not there. Here are your myths that you (the RCC) make up, and then call it doctrine even though it has nothing to do with the Bible.

Can't you simply read the scripture for what it says??
1Co 3:12-15
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
--The scene is in heaven.
No person is ever burned, tortured, punished in any way.
It plainly says: "Every man's work shall be made manifest."
"If a man's work abide..."
"If any man's work shall be burned..."
It does not say anything about the punishment of a person.
It says nothing about a person's sins. No "sin" is mentioned; only works.
You are reading into this passage things that are not there.
There is no such thing as a mortal sin. Sin is sin. But sin is not the focus of this passage; "works" are.

First, it has nothing to do with the passage 1Cor.3:11-15.
Second it is an OT passage, and must be evaluated as such.

Your opinion. That is not what the Bible says. David had his salvation, and sin would not take it away. Note David's Psalm of Repentance:

Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
--David doesn't ask for his salvation or plead for his salvation. He simply wants to have his fellowship restored. He already had his salvation. He never lost it; only his fellowship.

What happens when one repents according to David?
Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
--David was completely forgiven of all sins--past, present and future, as far as salvation was concerned. That rules out Purgatory. His sin repentance of his sin of adultery and murder simply restored his fellowship.

You are wrong. David could write:
Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
--That sounds like he is forgiven, fully forgiven.

The loss of his child is a consequence of sin. All sin has consequences.
In today's society murder may carry a life sentence or in some places the death sentence. There is a consequence for sin.
A pregnant mother drinks and does drugs and then gives birth to a deformed child. That is the consequence to her foolishness. It has nothing to do with Purgatory. The mother will suffer with consequence of her foolish behavior the rest of her life, even if she asks for forgiveness. The harm to the child will be irrevocable. But forgiveness at the time of birth might have been granted if asked for.

It is the consequence of the sin.

A friend was drinking, got in a car, and then in an accident. The result--the rest of his life he would be a paraplegic--never again to have the use of his legs. The other result--he found forgiveness with God. God forgave him of all his sins, even the drunkenness and any loss of life involved. God forgave him. But forgiveness did not restore his legs!! Do you think it should?
I can cite you many such examples.
There is a consequence to sin.
If you lie and gossip, the consequences of those sins may be eternal in nature. They can destroy a person's life. The consequence of sin.

True. God looks upon me as pure, holy and righteous. If I were to die today I know I would enter heaven--not because of my merit or anything I have done, but because of God's work, specifically the work of Christ on the cross.

Your doctrine is a mockery of the sufferings of Christ. It is akin to spitting in his face. You have done worse then the Roman soldiers who mocked him, for you mock him in the things that you post and the way your doctrine boasts that you have helped out in the work of Christ.
What heresy!
What an abomination before God.
Christ alone paid the price of our sins.
1John 2:2 He made a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
But you say you helped out.
You say you are helping him out in justification. What heresy!
It is God that justifies (not man)
The RCC doctrine of Purgatory cannot justify anything. Christ already completed the work.

 

The Bible says about justification:
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
--Absolutely nothing to do with man, his works, Purgatory, or the RCC.
Man cannot take any merit at all. Yet, that is what the RCC is claiming through the teaching of Purgatory. Horrible.

It is God that justifies; it is the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin (1John 1:7). What heresy you teach here.

It is a heretical myth; a superstitious doctrine of man invented to lead people to hell. It is not in the Bible and never taught by the Apostles.

No it doesn't. You are confused. That is the teaching of the RCC, not the Bible.

One is justified by faith. There is no scripture that teaches what you just stated. You are posting heresy.

Inheritance and justification are two different things.

How about the RCC propaganda that you post on this board which is full of lies? Isn't that a mortal sin?
The fact is that all sin is a transgression of the law.
Even the smallest sin will keep you outside of heaven.
Only Christ will get you in. The RCC is not the entrance into heaven; Christ is. He alone can save.