Why so difficult?

I think we do, but OK.

Yes. Both. From his perspective, he's there "right now" as they are being written via his inspiration. There was never a "time" where God thought "Hmmmm, in 100 years I'm going to inspire John to write some scripture", for God already existed where John was writing scripture.

 

Okay, then....something we agree on.

Oooh....we're on a roll. God decided to do it and caused it to happen via inspiration.

So what was the mechanism God used to accomplish this inspiration? Did it ensure that they would actually be written? Did it ensure that the final product (and we're talking orig mans here) would be as God intended it to be?

 

From our perspective, yes. But those are time-dependent phrases you are using.

His will - *in conjuction* with the men's conscious, real, independent choices to write things down.

Sure, but not through coercion, but because God worked *with and through* the real choices of the writers. They turned out the way God "intended them to be" (another time-related phrase) because before and while they were being written, God also existed at the point in time where they were already finished.

 

And I suppose you have some that aren't?

I would mostly agree, although I would not use the word independent, as I believe we are told the scriiptures were written through the agency of the Spirit. "Men of old spoke as they were moved by God"--not independent choices, but real and conscious ones.

I agree.

I would say this too, but I'm not sure we mean the same thing by it, because then you say:

Are you saying that the cause of the scriptures turning out as God intended is only the fact that God already knew the finished product, and not because He was also actively working within the men who wrote them while they were being written?

 

Interesting idea. Personally, I believe he intimated it somehow to someone along the line (Adam?), where it then passed down by oral means until someone (probably Moses) wrote it down. But of course I can prove none of that, nor does it matter too much.

And I suppose you have some that aren't?
</font>[/QUOTE] All I mean is that it appears to me you are only looking at this from the time-dependent persepective, and trying to get me to do the same, when my whole point is that using only the time-dependent persepective doesn't provide satisfactory solutions to the issue.

No, I am saying that us time-limited beings trying to understand timelessness is difficult and complicated, and fully understanding it is impossible. It is sort of like beings in a 2-dimensional universe (only width and length, like a flat piece of paper) trying to understand "height". But to answer your question, no - I also agree that he "was" actively working within the men while they wrote (and from his perspective, "is" )

Perhaps you can get to the point?

 

Absolutely. And now I know enough about what you believe to get to the point.

You say that scripture came about by:

and because

and this was all

And I might even take it farther than that. I think each decision the writer's made about word choice, subject matter, etc, was concious and real as well. They were not puppets, nor were they taking dictation. But that might be neither here nor there to my point, which I am finally getting to.

So would you agree then that God can will something, actively work within men to bring about that willed outcome, and yet that does not necessarily negate the conscious, real (I'll leave out independent cuz I don't know how you are defining it.) choices of men?

 

And neither, really, does trying to free ourselves from the bounds of time, cuz we just can't do it. We are, by nature, created beings, and we cannot escape creation. Even when God reveals things to us, he has to use phrases like, "before the foundation of the world." We can imagine what it might be like to be the Existant One, but we are only ever going to get the tiniest glimpse, and even that tiny glimpse is liable to be at least slightly off.

So, we accept that the satisfactory solution to the issue exists, but we can't get at it. It remains a mystery to us, but not to God. The solution is rational, because God is rational, but that doesn't mean we are going be able to explain it, or even hold the solution for a microsecond in out finite minds.

 

Absolutely. God *can*. But I don't believe he *always* does this. In fact, I think it's pretty rare, the inspiration of scripture being one example, maybe the hardening of Pharoah's heart being another. However, men can choose to do the will of God, knowingly or unknowingly, just as they can choose to do something that is not the will of God. It is the will of God that we abstain from fornication. Yet sometimes Christians fornicate. It is the will of God that all come to salvation, some choose to accept salvation, others choose not to. It is possible for man to choose to do something that is in opposition to God's will. Ultimately, at the heart of Calvinism (as I understand it), that is impossible - and I cannot accept that.

 

Then why this comment?

which suggests that you think that God arranging things so that belief is ensured means NECESSARILY that the choice to belief isn't a real one--means that the person HAS NO ALTERNATIVE but to believe.

If it is possible in the inspiration of scriptures, is it not POSSIBLE (not talking whether it is so, just whether it is possible) in the salvation of men?



But I don't believe he *always* does this. In fact, I think it's pretty rare, .....

Can you tell me, scripturally, why you believe this?

It depends on what you mean by will. Is it impossible for man to choose to do something that goes against the way God is working out the course of history? No.

It is possible for a man to go against the commands of God for human behaviour? Absolutely!

Now, I really MUST do other things for a while, so I may not respond again immediately..or I may, depending on how self-controlled I turn out to be. (Did you see that I posted on your favorite "timeless" subject while you were posting your last post to me? What is your feedback on that?)

 

Then why this comment?

which suggests that you think that God arranging things so that belief is ensured means NECESSARILY that the choice to belief isn't a real one--means that the person HAS NO ALTERNATIVE but to believe.
</font>[/QUOTE]No, I was explaining how I understand Calvinism, not what I believe personally. I do not believe that belief is foreordained in that manner.

Yes, it's possible. We could all be robots, yes, that is not impossible.

I already did. It is God's will that we don't fornicate (1 Thess 4:3). Yet some Christians commit fornication. That is just one example. I also mentioned that God wills all to come to salvation (Matt 18:14, 1 Tim 2:4), yet obviously some choose to accept salvation while others don't.

It depends on what you mean by will. Is it impossible for man to choose to do something that goes against the way God is working out the course of history? No.
</font>[/QUOTE]It depends what I mean by will?

YES it IS possible for man to choose to do something that goes against God's will because God is NOT "working out the course of history" - again you're seeing it only from a time-dependent view. God is not "working out the course of history" - he is above history, at all points in history. He knows our choices because he's at their realization, not because he's "working out the course of history" so that we have no alternative but to make that choice. That's my whole point.

I agree - yet where I disagree is that I see the cause of someone going against the commands of God is because of that person's *choice* - a real choice - not a manipulated illusion, the result of God working out the course of history so there is no alternative for that person.

I agree, in fact my position rests on this fact! Since we are limited to time, and God is not, and God is infinite and omniscient and we are not, then it is conceivable (nay, most probable) that God knows of a way to be omniscient and know the future while still giving us a *real* "free will" to choose things without being manipulated into it. I believe the answer lies in the fact that God is not bound by time, while we must go through it.

God bless,
Brian

 

Helen:

If God predestined you to salvation, then what can you do about it in terms of belief?

I can believe, as I have been commanded.

Can you cancel His decision by not believing?

My belief is also part of God's plan.

Your attempt to combine the necessity of belief denies the very sort of omnipotence and sovereignty that Calvinists claim for God.

Not so. Calvinists affirm that "very sort of omnipotence and sovereignty" and human responsibility.

 

Helen said:

I know this is where they are aiming. My point is that belief then really has nothing to do with the matter.

In that case, you are on the wrong forum. Your argument is not against Calvinism, but a figment of your own imagination.

 

Helen said:

So if humans do not exhibit that responsiblity, they are not saved regardless of predestination?

God's elect will believe, because of predestination.

 

Salvation is not a snack that satisfies a spiritual peckishness with a few donuts.

 

Ransom sez:

Helen replies:

Boy, Helen, you sure have a gift of understatement!!!!

 

There are people in hell as we speak that didnt have faith to believe in Christ. There are people in heaven who did have faith to believe in Christ. What is it about the two groups of people that caused them to end up in two diffrent places?
Was one group smarter than the other? Why did some have faith and some did not? Where does this faith to believe come from? If it takes faith to believe that Christ died for our sins and will take an individual to heaven when he dies how can one dead in trespasses and sins have the faith it takes to come to Christ unless that faith is given to a person as a free gift?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: