Why so difficult?

Helen,

You wrote - "It (the gift of salvation) is offered to every man or woman who ever lived."

How does this happen:
1. For all people who lived and died prior to the Cross and the Resurrection?
2. For all people who died between the resurrection and the Day of Pentecost?
3. For all people who die today without ever hearing about the Gospel?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

 

Okay, where were we? Let's see, I said:

And Brian answered:

But if working like that didn't make the "men of old" robots, why are you arguing now that it would?

I asked Brian:

refering to why he thinks God working in the way he did in the inspiration of scriptures (forordaining, bringing to pass, ensuring a certain outcome without negating free choice in the people He is working through) is a rare thing.

Brian wrote:

Okay, let's look at your second example. We can certainly agree that God commands that everyone believe and be saved. But does He PLAN that everyone accept salvation?

Doesn't God sometimes have things in his plans (one way of talking about His will) that are against His commandments (another way of talking about His will)? Like the death of Christ for instance. Sentencing Christ to death and murdering Him on the cross was definitely against the written in stone commandments of God wasn't it? ("Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God" come to mind. )

And yet, it was God's "predetermined plan" (Acts 2) for them to do what they did. They were doing "whatever [God's] hand and [God's] purpose predestined to occur." (Acts 4)

And, obviously, they freely chose to do what they did and were held morally accountable for it, for Peter tells them to repent of their part in what occured. (Also Acts 2)

So, if here on this occasion we have God's predetermined plan, His predestined purpose being worked out in the free choices of men to disobey His commandments, why do you think this is only a rare thing, and not God's usual way of doing things?

I kinda think it is God's usual way of doing things since we are told that, "God works all things according to the counsel of His will." Seems to me that "counsel of His will" would be pretty much synonymous with "whatever God purposed to occur" or "His predetermined plan." So I would take Ephesians 1:11 to mean that God always is working the way He did with the death of Christ--accomplishing His will (or purpose or predetermined plan) through even the disobedient acts of men.

And it isn't as if the death of Christ is the only time we have things laid out for us like this. There's Joseph being sold into slavery:

"You intended it for evil, but God intended it for good." "You intended it for evil" meaning the act of selling Joseph was a disobedient one, while "God intended it for good" meaning it was intended or willed by God for good purposes. Joseph's brother's selling him into slavery was one of those things God works "according to the counsel of His will."

There's the king of Assyria. He is " 'the rod of My anger and the staff in whose hands is My indignation....I will send him against a godless nation [Israel]'.... So it will be when the Lord has accomplished all His work....He will say, 'I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria.' "

God's will or purpose or predetermined plan--God's work("I will send.." "The rod of My anger" "..when the Lord has accomplished all His work...") accomplished through the disobedient acts of a man (the fruit of an arrogant heart, intending only destruction in order to boast), which are done in conjunction with that man's free choice for which he is held morally responsible. God working all things (even the disobedient acts of men) according to the counsel of His will.

But God IS working out the course of history. God is above history, but he is also IN history. We are time bound, and a history is unfolding for us, and He is here with us. He is transcendent AND IMMANENT.

God may have a viewpoint whereby He sees all at once, but that doesn't mean cause and effect are not still working. What happens today doesn't happen independent of what happened yesterday, and the future still grows out of the past.

But I don't disagree! Not really, anyway. The direct cause of anyone going against God's commands is that person's real choice, not a manipulated illusion. They have real alternatives to the choice they actually do make.

And yet God is working out the course of history--working all things according to the counsel of His will through the real choices (even disobedient ones) of men. These two things are not incompatible even though to us who are time or creation bound, to us of the pea brains they may certainly appear to be.

I chalk this up to His ways being higher than our ways. Maybe these things can all be compatible because of the "God is eternal" thing. Maybe its due to something else "completely other" about God. I don't know.

Oooh, I think we sort of agree! Except I would say that God knows a way to not only be omniscient and know the future while still giving us a real free will, he know a way to work the future according to the counsel of His will while still giving us real free will. And the answer lies in some capability God has that we can't fathom.

So if the scripture says that we choose God because He chose us (and I think it does) then I trust that that can be true without it negating the free choice of men, even though my brain can't rationalize it. If scripture says that God's choice and God's working is what changes the gospel from the foolishness that it is to all those who don't believe into the wisdom from God that it is for those who do believe, then I believe that that is true and is also compatible with the free choice of men, even though how it works remains a mystery to me.

So, do you mind if I pick your brain a little more? When God inspired the phrase "before the foundation of the earth" what do you think was the idea He intended to get across to those who read the scriptures?

 

Yes....By God's Grace Through their Faith.

 

Faith in God and completed in Jesus Christ.

God Called (chose) Israel and Abraham and his descendants mentioned in Hebrews 11 responded by faith in God. The only exception in Hebrews 11 is Rahab who by her Faith hid the spies and was later listed in the NT in the direct human lineage of Jesus Christ.

 

Helen said:

Methinks you missed the point altogether.

You're probably right. I should have said, it is a ridiculous and blasphemous parable that trivializes the work of my Lord. It reduces him from a dying, bleeding, Saviour to a joke: a tough kid who does push-ups for other kids to have donuts. The God-man who suffers to satisfy the justice of the Father on our behalf and avert the wrath justly due us is transmogrified into a schoolboy performing practically effortless calisthenics to dispense snacks to his classmates.

All of this just to denigrate and mock the freedom of God to do with his possession as he wishes, to save according to the kind intention of his will (Eph. 1:5), not ours.

[Post edited ... While I appreciate your fervor, some things are better left unsaid for the good of the conversation.]

[ January 25, 2004, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Hey russell55, sorry I missed your reply earlier.

It wouldn't, I shouldn't have said that without more explanation. I've already stated that I believe the writing of scripture was sort of a "special case" of God's involvement with man - the scriptures are "God breathed". If that's how he also works will all of our other choices, just because "it's possible", then *everything* that happens and *everything* we do, including sin, is done by "the inspiration of God", which of course is dead wrong.

Okay, let's look at your second example. We can certainly agree that God commands that everyone believe and be saved. But does He PLAN that everyone accept salvation?
</font>[/QUOTE]We had a fundraiser at our church, where we invited the public to our Christmas banquet. It was our will that everyone in town would come. We planned for about 50. That doesn't mean we manipulated everyone else so they had no alternative but to stay away.

Rev 13:8 says the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. It wasn't just "planned" that the Lamb would be slain from the foundation of the world - how can this be? Because God is above time.

Yes, they *freely* chose to do it, not because they were predestined to, but because they move through time while God is above time.

Because in negative actions, it makes God double minded. It is his will for us not to fornicate. But if we fornicate, it's because it is his will. Unacceptable.

Yes, God used the situation to bring about good. But did God "intend" for the brothers to sin, to accomplish this? Was their "choice" inevitable? Again, this makes sin ultimately God's fault as well as our own.

This may be one of those instances, like the hardening of the heart of Pharoah. I believe these exceptions prove the rule - not illustrate it.

But how can it be "free" choice if it is inevitable?

But you are saying that God is not just working things, but willing them in the first place - you are saying he wills us to sin!

I agree. God does work IN history, but he does not micromanage. God is absolutely sovereign, God is all powerful - yet he doesn't execute that power in the area of our free (REALLY free, not illusions) choice. He often guide and prompts, but rarely coerces.

But you just argued that in such cases, it was because it was God's predetermined plan for that to happen! How can it be a "real choice"?

No they don't. Can one *really* go down a different alternative path than the one that was predetermined? If it is inevitable that they don't choose an alternative, then that is not really an alternative after all.

I believe that when it says he chose us, it means he chose ALL of us - but not all of us reciprocate. I believe that when it says "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" that means appointed ALL to salvation, his will is that ALL will be saved, but because of our REAL FREE choice, most do not accept, most do not fulfill their side of the covenant, most do not allow God's *will* to transpire in their lives. Those that do accept, gain eternal life because they (like everyone else) were appointed to. Those that do not, do not because they miss/thwart the "appointment" by their choice.

I see I sort of already addressed this above. I think the idea of this passage is that God is above time - at the "moment" of creation, God was also not only looking forward to the crucifixion, but was actually *at* the crucifixion.

 

Helen:

If you don't like pictures, please ignore Christ's parables.

Jesus' parables didn't make a mockery of his teachings.

"Jesus did 10 pushups for your sins. Won't you receive him today?"

 

If we all could accept or reject Gods gift of salvation we all would have rejected it because we were all dead in trespasses and sins.
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.



But the Bible also says: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What is the gift of God? It is FAITH

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

HOW, PRAY TELL, CAN AN UNSAVED INDIVIDUAL CONJURE UP THE FAITH NECESSARY TO BELIEVE IN CHRIST UNLESS GOD FREELY GAVE IT?
That is the question that brought me to Calvinism.

But Helen, dont fret, it seems, and I dont know why,that Calvinism seems to be a masculine thing while Arminianism seems to be a feminine thing.

 

The same way one can "conjure" up the faith to believe in anything else.

 

So what you are saying is that the faith you have that your car will start tomorrow morning is the same faith that it takes to believe that Christ can get one to heaven.

 

You are confusing faith with trust. We trust things we can see, that is not faith. Faith has to do with what we can't see and yes I do believe that everyone has the God given capasity for faith. Some place that faith in Budda or Muhammed others place their faith in Christ.

 

Isaiah must have meant to say,"Come now, let me reason by myself...Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If I am willing, you will eat the best from the land; but if I'm not willing, you will resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword."

 

The same way one can "conjure" up the faith to believe in anything else. </font>[/QUOTE]No, not really. What I'm saying is that people, though examination of something (say, for example, a religion or a worldview or a political system or a scientific theory, etc.) can arrive at a point where they don't have absolute proof that the position is true, but they choose to believe it anyway. They come to a point where they have faith in it.

 

Does anyone want to try to make this distinction from Scripture? Cars and feet and all that are fine, but they are not Scripture. I would be very interested to see someone take the Scriptures and make this distinction with respect to salvation.