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Featured Why Some Saved Believers Will Be Left Behind?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Hark, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?` Mt 24 YLT

    ...i.e., the end of the Old Covenant age, consummated with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the sacrificial system.

    We are now new creatures of the new heaven and the new earth of the New Covenant. This is what became the Jew's 'heaven and earth':

    18 And if ye will not yet for these things hearken unto me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins.
    19 And I will break the pride of your power: and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass; Lev 26

    23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Dt 28
     
  2. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    If you use the YLT & that teaching for how you apply that to mean at the exclusion of everything else that the scripture says , then I can understand why you believe as you do but that doesn't answer the questions in Luke's reference of ... "has our redemption arrived yet? Has the Son of man come in cloud with power & great glory yet?" So future yet still & we need His discernment as to how to apply His words to which question Jesus is answering.
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I don't. Check it out.

    'Our' redemption is not in view here, and yes, those to whom He was addressing were indeed rescued/delivered from the great tribulation that befell that generation.

    "Redemption.--.....The word, familiar as it is to us, is, in the special form here used, another of those characteristic of St. Paul's phraseology (Romans 3:24; Romans 8:23; 1Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 1:7, et al.). It occurs also in Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 11:35. In its primary meaning here it points to the complete deliverance of the disciples from Jewish persecutions in Palestine that followed on the destruction of Jerusalem. The Church of Christ was then delivered from what had been its most formidable danger."
    Ellicot's Commentary

    Yes.

    63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
    64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26

    Christ may have been speaking to Caiaphas here, but it's interesting to note that Josephus records that Annas, father-in-law to Caiaphas (Jn 18:13, Lk 3:2, Acts 4:6), perished in the seige of Jerusalem 70 AD along with some 8,000 other priests.

    Gill on Matthew 26:64:
    "...when he says they should "see" him, his meaning is not, that they should see him at the right hand of God with their bodily eyes, as Stephen did; but that they should, or at least might, see and know by the effects, that he was set down at the right hand of God; as by the pouring forth of the holy Spirit upon his disciples, on the day of pentecost; by the wonderful spread of his Gospel, and the success of it, notwithstanding all the opposition made by them, and others; and particularly, by the vengeance he should take on their nation, city, and temple; and which may be more especially designed in the next clause;

    and coming in, the clouds of heaven. So Christ's coming to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, as it is often called the coming of the son of man, is described in this manner, Mt 24:27...."

    Edersheim:
    “......It was upon this that the High-Priest, in the most solemn manner, adjured the True One by the Living God, Whose Son He was, to say it, whether He were the Messiah and Divine, the two being so joined together, not in Jewish belief, but to express the claims of Jesus. No doubt or hesitation could here exist. Solemn, emphatic, calm, majestic, as before had been His silence, was now His speech. And His assertion of what He was, was conjoined with that of what God would show Him to be, in His Resurrection and Sitting at the Right Hand of the Father, and of what they also would see, when He would come in those clouds of heaven that would break over their city and polity in the final storm of judgment.” Edersheim, Life & Times, Book 5, Chap 13

    Russell:
    The words themselves are sufficiently simple. All the obscurity and difficulty have been imported into them by the reluctance of interpreters to recognise in the ' coming' of Christ a distinct and definite point of time within the space of the existing generation. Often as our Lord reiterates the assurance that he would come in His kingdom, come in glory, come to judge His enemies and reward His friends, before the generation then living on earth -bad wholly passed away, there seems an almost invincible repugnance on the part of theologians to accept His words in their plain and obvious sense. They persist in supposing that He must have meant something else or something more. Once admit, what is undeniable, that our Lord Himself declared that His coming was to take place in the lifetime of some of His disciples (Matt. xvi. 27, 28), and the whole difficulty vanishes..... -James Stuart Russell
     
  4. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that learning the scripture from man is not the same as learning the scripture from the Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit in you?

    1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. KJV

    Wisdom comes from the Lord so ask Him from now on when reading scripture & maybe some day, you will see the difference..

    James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

    As it is, those references of man & their teaching is hard for you to prove you are not influenced by them in how you read & apply scriptures. Do your reproofs by the scripture & trust God to show the truth in His words.

    2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. KJV

    Thank you for sharing, but I have to agree to disagree.
     
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  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You do realize that God set teachers in the church, right?:

    28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.
    29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 1 Cor 12

    Those I quoted I believe to be 'faithful men', able to teach:

    2 And the things which thou hast heard from me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 2 Tim 2
     
  6. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    But.. you are to confirm everything by the Lord Jesus Christ as even they are subject to the Word of God.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

    Paul made sure their sights were lifted to Him & not to himself for being able to receive His words

    1 Corinthians 3:.5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. ~ KJV

    Something to pray about, brother, as well as discerning the matter with Him
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You should pray for discernment yourself, brother. Then maybe you wouldn't fall prey to all this man made fear mongering sensational Dispensational fiction.
     
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  8. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    I do not refer to outside references when applying scripture. If you do not believe in the left behind saints for not being ready, then explain Luke 12:40-49

    Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? ~ KJV

    Note how the saved believers are cut off for not being ready to have their portions with unbelievers in Luke 12:46.

    Note how He still calls them His servant in Luke 12:47 for how He will render stripes to them per the measure of knowledge for not being ready & less stripes per the lack of knowledge for not being ready in Luke 12:48.

    And that fire is in regards to the fiery calamity that is coming on the earth which has not happened yet as Peter forewarns in 2 Peter 3:3-12 Do note that Peter associated this fiery calamity to the same level as the global flood at Noah's time except Revelation seems to limit it as one third of the earth that gets burned up as 7 angels begins to herald that destruction in Revelation 8:1-13 & continues on after that chapter, but one can get the gist of how one third of the earth gets burned.

    That has not happened yet, right? That fire Jesus talked about in Luke 12:49 & that fiery calamity that Peter warned about in 2 Peter 3:3-12 has not happened yet to say the left behind event from the rapture has happened per Luke 17:26-37.
     
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Given the specific language that Jesus uses in Matt 24, I don’t see any way Christians do not go through the great tribulation. He says,”after the tribulation” and then references His return in the clouds and the angels collecting the “elect” from the earth.

    I’d rather you be right about it, but scripture says otherwise.

    peace to you
     
  10. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    The end of the great tribulation is when the armies of the remaining 2/3 rd parts of the world is marching against Jerusalem & that was after the son of perdition reveals himself halfway through this great tribulation. My point here is.. how can the saints not know when He is coming then & yet He will come like a thief in the night?

    The fact that only those with the mark of the beast will be able to buy & sell during the great tribulation has to leave you wondering why the Lord bothered to warned believers to be ready as if they can be ensnared by the cares of this life that it would come on us unaware? Indeed,.. to pray for that escape is describing the times we are living in now for how we can be snared..

    Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. ~ KJV
     
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I notice you didn’t address my point from Matt. 24. Jesus said, “after the tribulation”, and then described His coming in the clouds and the angels gathering the elect.

    The point of Jesus giving “signs” of the end times is not so people can determine a specific date of His return, but rather that we live everyday as if He could return that very day.

    peace to you
     
  12. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Per your reply in post # 49, you only referred to Matthew 24 as the whole chapter for reference.

    Seeing how Jesus is answering 3 questions put to Him by His disciples in Matthew 24:1-51, you will need His wisdom to discern which of His answers addresses which of those 3 questions because He is not giving His answers in chronological order.

    If you wish to be specific... I believe the signs of His coming is before the great tribulation as we are living in the times where believers are led astray by movements of the spirit as if the Spirit of Christ is there in Pensacola or Toronto or in the church service even. It is after the tribulation we are living in now is when the events of the rapture will take place.

    Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    And onward... to the end is regards to the times we are living in now. How can any saint be working in field to be taken in the great tribulation when they need the mark of the beast to buy & sell?

    Just sharing how I see Jesus answering the disciples 3 questions in regards to your reference about being after the tribulation of those days as those are the signs of His coming before the end of this world as we know it & the great tribulation comes with the new world order & when the son of perdition is revealed halfway thru the great tribulation.
     
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    As you noted in verses 29+, Jesus gives a description of His 2nd coming.

    1st: This event occurs “after the tribulation”

    2nd: All will see Christ coming in the the clouds (clearly a reference to the 2nd coming)

    3rd: The saints are gathered by the angels.

    Christians go through the tribulation period. There are none “left behind” to go through the tribulation because the gathering of the saints occurs after Christ returns and Christ returns after the tribulation.

    peace to you
     
  14. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    I am led by the Lord Jesus Christ to differentiate tribulation from the great tribulation and so He will have to do that for you too. You may be unable to receive this truth now, but mayhap down the road, He may help you see the truth & His meaning in His words for why believers now.. are to be getting ready aby abiding in His words as well as His help to be willing to go and not be snared by the cares of this life that they would not be willing to go & since things will be really bad at the end of the great tribulation for the saints, that hardly describes the world they would be living in to be snared like that.. So those kind of snares can only apply to the times we are living in now for why the call to be ready at all times is now still See Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:34-36 for scripture.

    Thanks for sharing.
     
  15. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Seems to me that makes debate impossible, since I’m relying on what scripture actually says and you are relying on what the Lord Jesus Christ has communicated to you which is different from what the Lord Jesus Christ has revealed in scripture.

    peace to you
     
  16. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    The truths in parables are hidden until believers ask wisdom from the Lord.

    Discerning His words as to how to apply His words rightly dividing the word of truth also requires us asking wisdom from the Lord.

    The reason I put to you that you are not rightly dividing the word of truth is because the times described by Jesus fr us to be ready to go or else does not describe the end of the great tribulation for how bad it will be for believers that they would be snared by the cares of this life that they would be tempted not to go when the Bridegroom comes.

    The coming of the Bridegroom is different from the coming of the King of kings.

    The Bridegroom appears to receive the abiding bride of Christ to the Marriage Supper in Heaven ( Luke 13:24-30 & Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36 , leaving behind saved saints & former believers not abiding in Him.

    The King of kings is coming back with the raptured saints to wage war against the armies of the remaining parts of the world marching against Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:1-5 His foot is landing on Mount of Olives.

    For Satan to be defeated & in the pit means the armies marching against Jerusalem was defeated for when the saints are resurrected after the great tribulation. That means Jesus Christ is not meeting them in the air when He will be on earth.

    The term "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:1-6 was only used to infer that this resurrection of the left behind & new saints after the rapture as coming out of the great tribulation "before' the rest of the dead are resurrection later on. When you read Revelation 2:4-5 together to understand verse 5, that is the truth in His words for how to apply what first resurrection meant.
     
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Do you really think you are the only one asking for God’s guidance to understand scripture?

    You assume God hasn’t enlightened my understanding of His word because I disagree with your understanding? I’m always willing to change my mind based on scripture.

    Telling me God hasn’t yet enlightened me as He has enlightened you is wholly uneffective in convincing me of anything.

    I can only go by what Jesus said in scripture: Matt:24:29+

    1: After the tribulation....
    2: Jesus returns, everyone sees Him in the sky
    3: The elect are gathered by the angels.

    I have rightly discerned this passage and it isn’t complicated. The elect are raptured after the tribulation and during the 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus.

    peace to you
     
  18. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    We are always growing in the Lord and often times than not, what we have learned or think we had learned, may be reproved later on when we are open & thus able to receive it. Here is scripture to that effect.

    1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. ~ KJV

    If that be our current state until He brings us Home, then we can see why His prunings in our walk with Him, regardless of how fruitful we are, He will prune to bear more fruit.

    John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. ~ KJV

    There is a danger to refusing pruning when scripture is inconsistent to what we have learned or teach.

    John 15:.3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. ~ KJV

    That is the reference to be applied to the rapture. See below how Jesus referred to the fire coming on the earth on those for not being ready for the Bridegroom.

    Luke 12:.40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

    How do you apply those 2 scriptural references to mean?
     
  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 13:9 is speaking of our perfect understanding in heaven.

    I have already stated I’m willing to be convinced from scripture. You haven’t yet given any reasonable answer to Matt 24:29+ which clearly states Jesus returns and the elect are gathered after the tribulation.

    The passages from John 15 and Luke 12 have nothing to do with the rapture of the saints. They are warnings to those who profess the follow Jesus to let their actions be consistent with their profession of faith.

    I understand that God disciplines those He loves and leads us to a deeper understanding of His word which strengthens our relationship with Him and other believers.

    I will consider your opinions but understand any “insights” God has given to you doesn’t bind me to anything. Be convinced in your own mind, and I’ll be convinced in mine and I won’t assume God isn’t guiding your understanding because they differ from mine.

    peace to you
     
    #59 canadyjd, Feb 10, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
  20. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Is not after the tribulation of the tribulation.

    It is after the tribulation of those days.

    It has been non stop tribulation for 1990 years. There will be even greater tribulation after the Second Coming.
     
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