WHY THE RAPTURE MUST BE PRE-TRIBULATION

BobRyan,

On a slightly related topic, are you familiar with Hans K. LaRondelle, who was a theology professor at Andrews University? If so, what's your opinion of his work?

(I'm asking because he's quoted in a book I'm reading).

Many thanks,

Mark H.

 

I have heard of Dr. Hans LaRondale from Andrews - but it appears you are not reading one of his books from what you have written above -- true?

I am not an expert on his views - but I have not heard anything negative about him either.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Keep in mind that The Seals of Rev.6 parallel Christ's prophecy in Matt. 24. V.30 he says first that they shall see the "SIGN of the Son of Man", first, then He will come in the clouds, and gather the elect at the trumpet sound. In this verse are the 6th and 7th seal together. So they first see the sign in the sky, then, as we enter Rev. 7, the people of God (144,000 from Israel + innumerable company from all nations) are "SEALED", (just as those not with god wil receive the mark of the beast, but not yet be receiving their punishment). Now, v.15 says they are already before the throne of God in the Temple, which I will admit I glossed over before. There are different ways of interpreting this. It is possible then, that Ch. 14, like 12 and 13, then are simply stepping back from the time flow, and highlighting in more detail previously mentioned events. But then this would prove the Pre-Wrath position. Or, if the angel was only relaying what he sees in the future (the saints are not really at the throne at that time, and ch.14 shows their actual reaping), then the mid-wrath position is still possible. This method is used elsewhere, such as with some of the heads of the beasts, which are seen not in John's time, but the future. Or, it must be a sucession of raptures/resurrections, beginning with those in ch.6 and the beginning of ch.14 who are specified as coming out of the tribulation (i.e. went through it as believers), and then the rest who are finally "reaped" (apparently getting saved later in the tribulation).
But then in none of these cases is the rapture post-tribulational (meaning after the trumpets AND bowls).
You claim the same things are mentioned over and over several times in "segments", and this is possible with ch.6 amd 14, but still does not lead to a posttrib view. In those two chapters and ch. 19, we still see a progression: First they are sealed, then they stand on Mt. Zion with Him, as the harvest occurs, then they are with Him following Him back down. That is not all the same exact event.

Yes, it is individual torment, and it is in the presence of the Lamb, but eternal Hell is separation from God.

The fire and brimstone is at the Supper of God. Though Rev. 19 doesn't mention "fire and brimstone", but 2 Thess.2:8 mentions being consumed with the brightness of His coming, and Zech.14:12 mentions their flesh being consumed. In the fourth bow, also, they are scorched with fire, and Babylon is also burned with fire. Exekiel 38:22 fire and brimstone are rained down as well. People may think this is post-millenial, sinc Gog and Magog are mentioned there, but the rest of the details match Armageddon. (The post-millenial Gog and Magog are believed to be descendants of the pre-millenial ones. Of course, post-mils and a-mils will say something similar to what you are saying-- that it is the same thing repeated.) Fire and brimstone were even used in the sixth trumpet.
Speaking of people surviving Armageddon:

The verse you quoted says He will rule them with an iron scepter, and we will of course rule with Him. But if there's no one left, who will be there to be ruled? Generally, people take "all people" to mean people of all nations, and "the rest were killed" to mean those actively fighting. This may be wrong, but then what is your take on the Millennial reign? Do you take the Adventist position that the earth will be completely empty? And then what about those deceived by the Devil at the end of the Millenium, but before the resurrection of the wicked? Where did they come from?

 

Probably most of us as pre-teens thought of the Judgment Day as being at the end of time, or human civilization. But, on further study one realizes that this is not true. If there is one Judgment Day, then why does our Lord speak of two separate and unique judgments? The one is the Judgment Seat of Christ and the one for the lost souls being the Great White Throne Judgment.

Catholics with their preoccupation with learning the tradition of the church with all their named saints, have clearly missed the true teaching of end times events. After all, the Bible only is used when it fits into the system of Catholicism.

That book, "Rapture" written by David B. Currie has to be a sad attempt to puddy the holes of the Roman Catholic view of eschatology. If it were not so sad it would be funny.

 

Hi BobRyan,

That's correct -- I'm not reading one of his books, but a book I'm currently reading quotes a fair amount from his book "The Israel of God in Prophecy."

So, since you're my "resident SDA distant acquaintance" around here, I was curious if you had enough familiarity to have an opinion.

Thanks for responding!

Mark

 

Carson Weber,

'You said, ' . . . considering that he used to teach a pre-trib rapture in a Fundamentalist seminary.

Ray is saying, 'Nothing surprizes me anymore. II Thessalonians 2:3 says, 'Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first . . . ' God tells us that just before His appearing, [I Thess. 4:17] some Christians would aposticize from the purity of the faith.

You said, 'We have right around a thousand copies at the St. Paul Center For Biblical Theology http://www.SalvationHistory.com - if you donate 100 bucks, we'll send you one for free.'

Ray is saying, 'At those prices it should be signed by Pope John Paul. Or perhaps you could thrown in a few 'prayer cards' to send to my Catholic friends for their deceased friends. I hear tell that Purgatory is a most busy place these days.

 

Ray,

If you don't want to contribute toward the care and feeding of Carson and his cohorts (a worthy cause, to be sure), there's always amazon.com.

Mark

 

Oh, I forgot that you ARE Adventist. Sorry! (answers my questions!)
I've studied their position, which assumes the wicked at the end of the Milennium are the resurrected wicked, but that is BEFORE the 2nd Resurrection.
I have Roy A. Anderson's books on Daniel and Revelation, and used to go to the Adventist bookstore and read another 2 part series on prophecy called "GOD CARES", but I don't remember the Adventists teaching that Revelation was repeating the whole 2000 years between the cross and the end of the world in "sequences". I do know that they hold a preterist position, which says the seals and trumpets were all fulfilled, but the bowls, they held as still future, if I remember correctly, as well as the mark of the beast (since Sunday is not yet enforced. I still don't believe that will be the issue of the end-times, but that's another debate). My view was pretty much shaped by Armstrong, who taught that the seals were DUAL, having both past and future fulfillments.

 

Ed Edwards,

I think we agree that all of the Seal, Trumpet, and Vial Judgments are yet in the future. For example, the 6th Seal found in Revelation 6:12 has not yet taken place. These people who think they are presently in the Great Tribulation, have no idea until He starts opening these unprecidented horrors on the earth. The lost ones will experience these devastations but His people will then be safe in the Presence of the Lord. [I Thess. 5:9]

 

If he has a book by that name - I have not read it.

I am no expert on LaRondale.

In Christ,

Bob