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Why we worship the way we do?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Jun 22, 2007.

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  1. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    I understand that this is not the point of your discussion.

    But for me to be able to discuss normative vs. regulative, I must know what, as you say, "God has specifically ordained" for the New Testament church to be doing on Sundays from 9:30-12:00.

    You have said that there are "proper", "only", and "authorized" worship practices that God has "ordained".

    How can I discuss the argument of their propiety and their exclusivity if you won't tell me what they are?
     
    #21 Scarlett O., Jun 22, 2007
  2. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    I'm not going to debate creativity in worship with you, but I will say that Cain's problem was not creativity in worship and that "creativity" is not why God didn't accept Cain's offering.

    I would submit to you that Cain didn't worship God at all.

    Cain's problem was that he was unrighteous in his heart from the get-go. Both Hebrews 11 and 1 John 3 say that Cain was wicked and Abel was righteous.

    There was nothing wrong with a grain offering. All through the law, grain offerings were made over and over and over along side burnt offerings. Offerings of grain mixed with oil from olives were repeatedly commanded by God to be performed as well as blood sacrifices.

    Cain's problem was that he didn't love God.....that is quite evident in the fact that when God did not accept his offering (due to unrighteousness) that Cain got mad as a hornet.....mad at God! God even asked him why he was so mad.

    And when God asked Cain where Abel was, Cain smarted off to God and told God that he wasn't the one that was supposed to be taking care of Abel in the first place. He actually insinuated that it was God's fault that he killed his brother.

    So, in this context, creativity is not the issue......
     
    #22 Scarlett O., Jun 22, 2007
  3. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    One will find that acceptable worship involves kneeling or laying prostrate before God and Him only.

    It took me only 30 minutes to check every reference to worship listed in a concordance. This is what I found. Worship is kneeling or laying prostrate before God in humility, fear, reverence and obeisance. Love for God is never mentioned. Worship involves the worshipper's recognition of one greater than he and his own subservience before that One who is greater. Often times it is coupled with singing praises but not always. Singing is in addition to worship but is not necessarily a part of worship. Hearing the word of God declared is sometimes part of the whole experience but it is not worship in the proper and biblical sense.

    Thei first use of the word is when Abraham was about to go up the mount to sacrifce Isaac. It is therefore an act of supreme sacrifice unto God made in faith and obedience.

    I can hardly, in good conscience, call what we do in our churches today even remotely close to true worship whether in spirit OR in truth. Today, I think, worship is an individual act we each must do in our private devotions.

    Corporately speaking, I would be interested to see what would happen in your average Baptist church if TRULY biblical worship were to be implemented.:praying:
     
    #23 av1611jim, Jun 22, 2007
  4. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    I think you are still misunderstanding.
    We are not discussing whether or not you can have a circus or musical instruments or concerts in worship.
    We are discussing what is the proper way to determine if it they are right or wrong.
    Do we look to see if it is prohibited or to see if it is authorized.

    It is actually quite simple.

    If you say that Musical instruments are ok because they are not condemned, then you believe in the normative principle.
    If I say that Music instruments are ok because God commands it, I believe in the regulative principle.

    See, we may have the same conclusion about a particular topic but this is about how we get there.

    From the RPW viewpoint, we may disagree on what is authorized and what is not but we will agree on the fact that all must be authorized.

    From the NPW viewpoint, there may be disagreement as to what is prohibited and what is not but all from that view point will agree that is must not be prohibited.

    Does that make more sense?

    I am not always the best at explaining myself :) please be patient with me ;-)
     
    #24 Dale-c, Jun 22, 2007
  5. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    I believe you are mistaken in your assessment of the circumstances regarding Cain and Able's respective sacrifices. God had already demonstrated what the acceptable sacrifice was to be. He did this by giving Adam and Eve covering's made out of the skins of an animal. Obviously blood had to be shed. It is clear that God's covering their nakedness pictures God's method for covering their sin. SHED BLOOD. Able had decided to do it his way, i.e. get creative rather than OBEDIENCE to God's way. Creativity IS the issue.

    Nowhere in Scripture will you find God approving man's "creativity" in worshipping The Lord of Hosts. In fact, you will find just the opposite. God hate's it. WHY was Cain wicked? Because he did not OBEY. He did it his way and THAT my dear sister is the essence of man's "creativity" in worship.
     
    #25 av1611jim, Jun 22, 2007
  6. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    I did not mean to appear to be impatient and I understand your differentiation between the two.

    My question to your above statement is this....if there are definite and authorized elements of worship, how can Christians disagree on them?
     
    #26 Scarlett O., Jun 22, 2007
  7. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    For one thing, if we're all going to lay down, we'll need bigger churches.
     
    #27 npetreley, Jun 22, 2007
  8. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Which part of the sacred Scriptures say that it was Cain's "creativity" that got him into trouble?

    And what do you really mean by "creativity"? Is raising my hands in worship to God being too creative and therefore a NO, NO? (Psalm 28:2; 134:2; 141:2). How about dancing before God as an expression of worship? (Psalm 149:3;150:4) How about a tribal group beating their drums in worship to God? (Psalms 149; 150)

    Or are we to reject the Psalms at this point?
     
    #28 TCGreek, Jun 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2007
  9. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    Or! No chairs, pews etc....:laugh: :wavey:
     
    #29 av1611jim, Jun 22, 2007
  10. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    one of the most common controversies is music.
    musical instruments are commanded in the OT but not so in the NT.
    I believe they are still valid, others don't.

    we all agree that preaching, praying and singing are authorized right?
     
    #30 Dale-c, Jun 22, 2007
  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    I find it instructive that we use instrumental music in our worship, which is not seen in the NT, but we are slow on lifting hands and dancing, which are both in the OT, from we get instrumental music. Why?

    Not because an element of worship is not specified in the NT means that it is forbidden. If that is the case, then there goes our instruments.

    Because of what I believe about worship, that it is more focus on the condition of the heart before God, the forms to express such worship is cultural as seen by the OT.
     
    #31 TCGreek, Jun 22, 2007
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