Why Would a Pastor Condone Freemasonry

Then the claim that Jehovah is presented in Masonic Ritual is false, as this is NOT a Masonic Ritual.

Freemasonry is open to any faith that claims a 'supreme being', whether it is Jehovah God or not, and you well know it. To say otherwise is false.
John Calvin had nothin to do with Masonic Ritual, your phrasing seems to indicate otherwise. Nevertheless, the practice of not using the name of Jehovah and sticking to generic appellations is so that the God of The Bible will not "offend" those that reject His Word.

It does not say "instruct", and given the specifics of the Language used in Masonry, if it meant "instruct", it would say so. I well remember the learning of the Work to the crossed-t and dotted-i; Masonry is careful of its p's and q's. Furthermore, given the pagan roots of Freemasonry, "enlighten" "as the glorious Sun" renders a much clearer meaning.

Problem is, that is NOT what it says. Read it in context, but moreso in the true understanding of Freemasonry's pagan roots. Likewise with the deacons.

Nice word-twisting here, but not at all close to what I asked. These duties are supposedly to be done in/for the Glory of Jehovah, but non-Christian and anti-Christian religions do not share in this service because they serve false "gods".
Remember, you must include the heathen dieties in this, and they most assuredly are not Jehovah God, but they are quite welcomed under the appellation of the "Great Architect" of Freemasonry. Furthermore, that Muslim doctor was not standing beside me in Lodge, and Freemasonry claiming we worship the same God. Medicine is not Masonry, and healing does not include claims of false "gods".

Mr. Webber, this is false and you know it. No man, regardless of his religion is ever expected to "bite their tongue" as you say. How many V's.O.S.L. does Freemasonry have? (Remember, I am a former Master Mason--whitewash will not play here.)
Again you claim the Trinity and Christ are referred to in Ritual. I challenge you to present the quotes from Ritual... you cannot, because they do not exist! I know, for Pete's sake, I was a Master Mason and studied Masonry deeply. What I found is what caused me to leave it.
Present these references you claim, or be seen as presenting false and unsupportable tales.

Mr. Webber, again you dodge and evade. Freemasonry far, far predates what is presented, and its roots are well seated in the Ancient Hidden Mysteries of the East. These things I learned from years of research myself.
What you call a "Christian only Frat" was born long before what became Freemasonry.

Now you are being even more dishonest and facetious. The Temple in The Bible is not, I repeat NOT, The Temple presented in Masonic Ritual. Grand Master Solomon is a false presentation; Grand Master Hiram, King of Tyre is even more false; and Grand Master Hiram Abiff is even the greatest falsity. No such presentations are ever made in The Bible. Freemasonry takes the History from Kings and Chronicles and weaves it into a tapestry of lies.

The SBC study is NOT Masonic Ritual... nice try, but not even a leaner here, much less a ringer. Again you say the Trinity is in the Ritual... present the evidence! Again you cannot, and both of us know why... it is not in the Ritual at all.

Now you get really far in left field here, as I have not said anything about not believing God created the universe...where do you get that? (Noticed you switched from Jehovah to YHWH... any reasons for this?)
Jehovah, YHWH, Yaheweh, Jove... none of these are presented in Ritual. Again, the prayer you quoted is not from Ritual either... it is simply a presentation of false "evidence".

Look, Freemasonry is universal (I'll present the exact quotes from The Tennessee Craftsman if you would like.) and you well know it. Freemasonry respects no religion above another. When prayer is offered that encompasses all, and offered in the name of Jehovah, only one of two things will happen. All the Masons that do not believe in Jehovah will stand offended or leave, or this prayer calls upon Jehovah in vain. The answer is the latter.
Now, if you want to play games, go right ahead... if you are going to present something as evidence, you had better back it up, and make sure it is correct. The prayer you presented was NOT from Ritual, and you still cannot present any other such evidence to back your other claims.
Truth will always win out.
Study Masonry much deeper than you have, and discover its real roots, then compare it to The Bible, and you will find that you will have to choose one and leave the other. I know, because I did this, and found no escape from this Truth.

In Christ,
W.D.Rice

 

Gina
There would be no fear at all just ask the two here that are anti-masonic. There have been others at my Lodge who have left we do not shun them we still help when they need it. My Uncle has been kicked out but we do not stop talking to him. In fact we let him know we are praying for him that he can change. I would have no fear in leaving the Lodge. People have left because they do not have time for it any more. No one held a grudge against them. I do not hold a grudge against Mike or WD I would gladly help either one in there time of need as much as I can.

 

I did no such thing. I wrote in reference to one specific question/challenge, which has been at issue for some several posts, concerning whether or not "Jehovah" appears in lodge ritual. Jacob has shown one from TN in which it does. The discussion has centered on TN ritual specifically, and U.S. ritual in general. Besides, it is not I or anyone posting from a pro position who have determined the scope of things, it is you and the other antimasons here who have defined the scope of things by supplying quotes from various lodges, and as I recall, they have all been quoted from U.S. lodges. If you are going to continue to quote from U.S. lodges to support your arguments, then it is inconsistent at best and hypocritical at worst for you to disallow me the same basis for support. Freemasonry must described as it pertains to the locale, since as Pike has duly noted, the lodge takes on the religion and the altar takes on the holy book, of whatever the predominant religion is within each Grand Lodge jurisdiction. All of the U.S. lodges would be defined as Christian lodges, and would have the Holy Bible as their VSL. This is a point you have yet to refute, mainly because you know it is true. That is why you continue to try to reframe the situation to draw a false picture of an amalgamated group gathering in U.S. lodges, which ain't what exists in practice. For someone who supposedly belonged to the lodge for some time, you are in serious need of a reality check regarding this point.

Read it again, Mike, this time slowly. Do you see that phrase "and that fraternally, not religiously? Dwell on it, breathe it in deep, let it permeate deep and expel those false notions once and for all.

Quoting and then miscasting material from Grand Lodges is definitely not "refuting what most Grand Lodges say." Mainly because by doing so, you have not even touched on what they say at all, but on what you say about they say.

I've yet to see you make a valid case for this. The only way I see you arriving at a conclusion of "erroneous" is a mocking aimed at the sincerity of their use of Scripture, based a preconception that they can't be Christian anyway. Your entire reasoning on the point is circular logic.

Look around you Mike, everywhere you post in here, nothing is discussed but U.S. Lodges, those who post as Masons are U.S. Masons, all your arguments you have offered support for are suppported with material from U.S. Grand Lodges. I'm not speculating here, I'm observing the plain hard facts as they have existed so far on this forum.

Then by your logic, it stands to reason that you cannot quote from Masonic material and make any case at all against all the fraternity either. There is no room for the double standard you prefer.

How could it be "more clear" by being one or the other, when he has made it emphatically clear that you can find it in both?

And if you really want to play that card and thumb your nose at this "masonic rule of thumb," then you need to realize that on that basis, neither do you have any claim for any accusations.

Yes, and it's a two-way street, so wipe the powder out of your eyes, and start over. This whole thing started, after all, not with Freemasons but with antimason accusers.

TW

 

WD
Can you open a Lodge without Prayer. It is part of the Ritual. You can not proceed without the Prayer.

(Freemasonry is open to any faith that claims a 'supreme being', whether it is Jehovah God or not, and you well know it. To say otherwise is false.)

I never said otherwise.

(John Calvin had nothin to do with Masonic Ritual, your phrasing seems to indicate otherwise.)
I never said He did I said Freemasonry took the term G.A.O.T.U from Him.

As far as the Trinity WD you know it is there in your Tennessee Chraftsmen. As including heaten deities I do not have too as I do not worship them. And yes I was messing with you on stated that you were coming around as we have with each other in the past. WD it comes down to you do not like Freemasonry you will not see YHWH in it even thou He is there you just refuss it. Because you have already made up your mind that it is evil. And no matter even if the Prayer has the name of YHWH in it you will try to dismanlte it and tur it into something pagan. As I stated before the Blue Lodge rituals come from the York Rite. The York Rite teches Salvation thru Jesus Christ has Christ in it and has the completion of the Hiram story in it. But you did not go thru it you dropped out before hand. IF you had not than it would be alot more clear to you. The Knights Templar only accepts those who profess a Faith in Jesus Christ. Many Masons say you are not Truely a Master Mason until you go thru the York Rite.

 

Gina,

By that line of reasoning, there would never have been a Christian Church. One of the big criticisms the Jews had of the church was their reverence of a man who died on a cross, which went directly against a known expression of God's view in the Word, "Cursed be he who hangs on a tree." So I assume that if we were a group of Jews sitting around talking this out, and I was taking the pro-Christian position, then if you were consistent with what you just had to say, I would be better off to simply stay put and side with the Jews, to "avoid the bad things that people think of the Christians?"

TW

 

By that line of reasoning, there would never have been a Christian Church. One of the big criticisms the Jews had of the church was their reverence of a man who died on a cross, which went directly against a known expression of God's view in the Word, "Cursed be he who hangs on a tree." So I assume that if we were a group of Jews sitting around talking this out, and I was taking the pro-Christian position, then if you were consistent with what you just had to say, I would be better off to simply stay put and side with the Jews, to "avoid the bad things that people think of the Christians?"

TW </font>[/QUOTE]That would be a logical line of reasoning if we weren't talking about Christianity, which is a matter of eternal life or death.
A club in NO way compares with a religious belief system that can damn your soul or save it.
Gina

 

(In other words, as long as Masons think that ALL gods are one in the same, no one is going to be offended no matter what name you call Him (or it). Unfortunately, for "Christian" Masons, this is a clear violation of the First Commandment as they engage in prayer to Yahweh in the context of nonbelievers praying to false gods during times of prayer in the Lodge.)

If all mason think all gods are one in the Same than why even bother to ask to Profess a Faith in Jesus Christ and tech that He is the only way to Heaven. This is what the Knights Templar says. They are Masons. And again the Blue Lodge degrees come from the York Rite a Christian Frat. Because the Blue Lodge is the lower three degrees of the York Rite it is just part of the story when your progress thru the York Rite the story is completed and Ends with Christ.

Gina
I forgot to mention that if a person leaves the Lodge or is kick out of the Lodge they can repettion the Lodge after a yr I believe maybe more. If the just left they pay two yrs dues and are reinstated. In they were kicked out they are reexamined and put on a parole to see if they have change their character. Than they may be allowed to repetition the Lodge.

 

(Black Masonic Text Book is NOT Masonic ritual, so Jacob)

The black Masonic Text Book predates the Craftsmen it is the orignal what you call masonic monitor. The current addition is 24th edition TN Craftsman this one predates it by 20 editions. So before saying the Book is not Masonic Ritual do some research. Again the Blue Lodge degrees come from the York Rite a Christian Frat. So what God is present in the Ritual of a Christian Frat it would be YHWH in Threefold aspect of the Trinity. The first Three Degrees come from this York Rite so what God is in that Ritual YHWH in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity.

 

Requirements For Membership of Knights Templar

Member of a recognized Craft Lodge (Master Mason)

Member of a recognized Chapter (Royal Arch Mason)

Personally known by his sponsor and seconder

Well reputed for morals and gentlemanly conduct

Believer in the doctrine of the Holy Trinity (a Christian)

York rite: believed to have begun 925-940AD or disbanded in 1313
Blue Lodge: 1717AD
Scottish Rite: 1804AD

 

I wasn't the one who initiated the club reference, that was a quote from you that I responded to. But thank you for clearly making my point, that a fraternal organization "in NO way compares with a religious belief system that can damn your soul or save it." That's been my contention all along, and I'm glad to see someone on the anti side finally understand it too.

TW

 

Gee, this just doesn't quite float your boat. There can be Christian lodges, Mohammedan lodges, Hebrew lodges, it just depends on where the lodge happens to be situated and who the majority of attendees would thus be. This country is overwhelmingly Christian as far as religious choices go, no reason to call it by any of the other designations. That doesn't mean I'm trying to call Freemasonry a Christian institution, which always seems to be your greatest fear anytime anybody discovers Christian or biblical elements within it. In fact, it is not a religion at all, as is clear from the above remarks.

Of course, you will inevitably remind me now, that "Pike doesn't speak for all Masons," adopting in chameleonic fashion the very phrase you deny when Masons cite it. And the fact is, Pike does not speak for all Masons, and there is an awful lot Pike had to say that most Masons seem to take strong exception to. However, this statement would not be one of them, and I haven't seen anybody but antimasons who have a problem with it.

TW

 

I don't see how you can miss the contradiction this creates with the above quote. If they were all on the same level, all VSL's represented by all individuals in the lodge would be on the altar. They are not. In fact, there are never more than two, one from the religion with the most adherents in that lodge, which remains on the altar at all times, and one which is placed there for a ritual obligation only, at the request of an individual, and is removed afterward.

No matter how you try to slice and dice it to fit your own personal opinion, respect for the various religions that might be represented in a particular lodge does not equate to the polytheism or syncretism that you continually make it out to be. Masonry commands no man's religion, they do quite the opposite and go to great lengths not only to respect it, but to encourage the individual himself to maintain it.

TW

 

The Worm,

The God of this World has blinded the eyes of them that believe not...

That's how...

There can be no other allegience but Jesus...

His flag can *never* fly at the same height of any other...


He, and He alone, is Lord of Lords and King of Kings...

If he is not Lord of Lords... Then we fail at a critical point in Salvation as understood in Romans 10:9-10

Lordship is not just a mere verbal confession... It is a continuous lifstyle confession, a testimony by example, a martyrdom of self to the Lordship of Christ.

The Bible clearly states you can not serve two masters...

And, 'The Lodge' states they are top dog...

Yes, truly blind... To not see such a glaring contradiction...

Wish I could be more hopeful...

But, for far too many... Friendship (and business contacts) with the world is more important that Naming Christ as absolute Lord of Lords...


Without reservation or equivocation, HE only IS LORD!

 

SMM,

To all of which I agree, with no mental reservation, no secret evasion whatsoever. He's been my Lord for quite a few years, and continues to be. I can say the same for all the Masons in my acquaintance. In case you haven't been reading all the posts that have been put here, there has not been one single Mason who has set aside faith in Christ in any way for the lodge.

There are statements posted above that indicate the contrary. I assume you have some statement from the lodge to show that they somehow assert their authority above that of God? I've never seen any such thing myself.

Actually, I wish you could be more helpful. . . like providing something to corroborate what appears to be an off-the-wall, unfounded accusation.

TW