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Why Would a Pastor Condone Freemasonry

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by O.F.F., May 22, 2004.

  1. O.F.F.

    O.F.F. New Member

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    Worm,

    Since you are a woman and have never seen the inside of a Masonic Lodge -- as myself and others here have -- when is comes to understanding Masonic Principles, I suggest the readers here rely on the firsthand experience of those who have practiced Freemasonry and the declarations of Grand Lodges who are the highest authority in the Masonic Order:

    SpiritualMadMan,

    I think you hit the nail on the head! Freemasons, even "Christian" ones show no exclusivity or absolute allegiance to Jesus Christ. Instead, they'd much rather compromise by maintaining allegiance to the syncretistic amalgamation of the religion of Freemasonry.

    And, let's not ever forget prominent Freemason, Henry Wilson Coil's statement about the Masonic Religion. Coil was being critical of the Craft in claiming to be religious, but not a religion. He said:

    He also said:

    Mike
     
  2. frewtloop

    frewtloop Guest

    Obviously, you have not noticed that Coil stands alone in saying this. Or actually, it appears you have noticed, but quote him anyway, just as you do little snippets and snatches of things that reflect small segments of Masonry but not nearly the whole. It appears to be a stock-in-trade of being an antimason.

    Shall I bring in masonicinfo.com and share their opinion of certain antimasons, you included, and portray it as representative of the truth of the whole? I daresay you would be up in arms to defend yourself, that the accusations were false, etc. etc. And in the final analysis, it amounts to the same thing.

    TW
     
  3. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    (Since you are a woman and have never seen the inside of a Masonic Lodge -- as myself and others here have)

    Since you come from a lodge that is not recognized by the Grand Lodge know as clandestain. Mike I can not really say you have an understanding of Masonic Principles.
     
  4. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Mike
    If I showed up at your church as a Mason would you welcome me with open arms or turn me away.
     
  5. frewtloop

    frewtloop Guest

    Thanks, JW. I've really had to bite my tongue to avoid giving in to the temptation to say the same thing. It takes a lot of effort sometimes to curb my ignorance.

    And of course, nothing seems to be said to certain others who post here, to whom the same standard would apply. Does that mean, Mike, that you depend upon yes-men/women to support your position? I mean, don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with an amen corner now and then, but by the standards you have just imposed upon me, you have at least two members of your own hallelujah chorus whose credibility you also have just called into question.

    TW
     
  6. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Let's not make this a personal issue between people please.
    This topic is getting long again, so let's dedicate the last few pages to final points. If the discussion still isn't over we can start a continuation of it after this one is closed, same as the last.
    Gina
     
  7. O.F.F.

    O.F.F. New Member

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    JW, you asked:

    Corey, you know that I would welcome you wholeheartedly and embrace you openly. But, I would also ask you to remove your Apron, assuming this is what you mean when you say "show up as a Mason."

    As for your comment about my credibility as a former Prince Hall Mason, it shows the deep rooted racism instilled into you by your Grand Lodge. Last time I checked, 75% of the Grand Lodges in the U.S. recognize my former Grand Lodge as "regular," and not "clandestine." Therefore, that puts your Grand Lodge of Tennessee among the minority who still doesn't.

    Besides, I have not quoted Prince Hall Grand Lodge information. Most of the quotes I've used to discredit the heretical teachings of Freemasonry come from Grand Lodges YOUR Grand Lodge acknowledges and recognizes as legitimate.

    So your issue or complaint should not have anything to do with my former status as a Prince Hall Mason. If you have an issue with what's been shared, take it up with them. Shifting to personal attacks and ad hominem merely makes you look worse than you already do by compromising the gospel trying to defend the indefensible.

    Mike
     
  8. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Mike
    I do not mean showing up dressed in an apron. Thou I would disagree with asking to take the apron off to a point. I would not ware it to church anyway. By to the point I mean in some churches women are turned away becuase they have a pair of pants on or a Man is covered in Tatoo's. Now I would ask someone if they came in wareing something reveiling to please find some more covering cloths and would offer to help them out if they could not afford it. Were should not turn away people due to the way they dress if a wiccan came to my church dressed in Goth and dark makup and such I would welcome them as they are offer them a sit and let them see what Christ is about.

    (As for your comment about my credibility as a former Prince Hall Mason, it shows the deep rooted racism instilled into you by your Grand Lodge. Last time I checked, 75% of the Grand Lodges in the U.S. recognize my former Grand Lodge as "regular," and not "clandestine." Therefore, that puts your Grand Lodge of Tennessee among the minority who still doesn't.)

    Mike I did not question your credibilty as a PH Mason I only stated that PH is not recognized by my Grnad Lodge and is consider Clandestian. As far as racism now where in the requiremnets of becoming a Freemason does it ask your skin color. And I would gladly welcome any good man to my Lodge no matter what the color if they wanted to join and as I stated Early the Grand Lodge of TN states we have intergrated Lodges so that means men of all skin shades.

    You said earlier that there is no Lodge in the South that recognizes PH I posted to that you were wrong and presented Evidence for it and you seemed to overlook it.

    (Besides, I have not quoted Prince Hall Grand Lodge information. Most of the quotes I've used to discredit the heretical teachings of Freemasonry come from Grand Lodges YOUR Grand Lodge acknowledges and recognizes as legitimate.)

    How do you know them to be what the Lodge teaches if you have never been thru them.


    (So your issue or complaint should not have anything to do with my former status as a Prince Hall Mason. If you have an issue with what's been shared, take it up with them. Shifting to personal attacks and ad hominem merely makes you look worse than you already do by compromising the gospel trying to defend the indefensible.)

    I am not sure why you would take it as a personal attack when I just stated the Truth. You said that TW did not have any real say because she did not go thru the Lodge. I stated that you went thru a clandestian lodge which is not recognized by the Grand Lodge and does not consdier you a Mason. So you and TW are on even ground when trying to talk about The recognized Grand Lodges.
     
  9. frewtloop

    frewtloop Guest

    The explanation of how Masonry came to be what it is and why is a very simple story. It remains an institution devoted to preserving its long-standing traditions, methods, and symbols. The following is an excerpt from one of the most clearly told accounts of the reasons for the rituals and symbols of Freemasonry:

    TW
     
  10. frewtloop

    frewtloop Guest

    One fact a lot of people forget, and which the above author does not address, is that Freemasonry before the 1717 establishment of the Grand Lodge was thoroughly Christian. Many of the rituals and symbols contained within Freemasonry are at the root and heart of them founded straight from Christianity and the Christian Bible, not haphazardly or by accident, but by intention and design. It was not until the establishment of the Grand Lodge that other influences, particularly Jewish esotericism, began to gradually remove the Christian influences.

    TW

    EXTRA CREDIT QUESTION: Can anyone tell me what was the origin of the EA ritual's proclamation of "neither naked nor clothed, barefoot nor shod?"
     
  11. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    TW
    Not so much removed just reworded to say the same thing. The name YHWH was replaced with God (Due to Jews can not say the name of God) and God was replaced with GAOTU because they thought the name more befitting since the Frat is called Freemasonry. (Took from John Calvin). Morning Star or Lion of the Tribe of Judah point to Christ. But to the Jews it points to the Messiah(Which is Christ). Even thou others twist it into a different meaning the True meaning remains Christ and YHWH.
     
  12. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    TW, how did you come to know so much about freemasonry? I noticed this is the only topic you've posted on here and it's got me wondering why/how it interests you to this degree. [​IMG]
    Gina
     
  13. frewtloop

    frewtloop Guest

    I'm the youngest in my family of six children, my dad abandoned the family when he ran off with another woman. Mama probably never knew I saw it, but when we went to church and the deacons came up to shake her hand, they had money that would change over from their hand to hers. I found out later these men were Masons, and I suppose that kind of thing is bound to leave an impression on you. Had it not been for these men and their loving concern, I don't know how we could have made it, certainly not on Mama's salary as a store clerk. When her car died, she was provided a new one, not literally "new," a used car in very good condition, at no cost and no questions asked. I guess the interest is partly because it's hard to ignore such caring people who see a need and respond in caring ways. And I suppose, in a way, an organization of men of character is attractive to someone abandoned by the man who should be the most influential man in her life.

    And by the way, this is not the only place I've posted.

    TW
     
  14. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    I had intended to stay off this subject, because of the warped nature of those deluded by freemasonry. They way they have changed truth to fit their agenda. The clear way they have, even though they deny it, replaced biblical Christianity with this perverted teaching of the lodge. But, I can't let this statement go by. Not that I think it will do any good for those confused by the darkness of freemasonry.

    Masons did not get their ritual, at any time in history, from Christianity of the Christian Bible. Christians don't have rituals and the true Christian church does not teach rituals or promote symbols. And certainly the Bible does not. While there maybe some practices in some churches that are put forth as ritual and some churches may promote symbols. The Bible never does.

    Again, if you want to be in freemasonry or promote it because of some good they have done toward you, that is your business. But it is not Christian and has no place in the Christian Church, and members of the Church who partake in it bring defilement on themselves and reproach on the name of Jesus.

    I will not debate with those who refuse to uphold God's Word as their standard. They have chosen to believe a lie and willfully disregard the truth. I will pray for you but will not debate you, but I will not stand by and let you revise the truth to meet your agenda. There is no reconciling freemasonry and biblical Christianity, so quit making these blasphemous statements.

    Bro Tony
     
  15. preacherchris

    preacherchris New Member

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    recently i asked several masons at the church i teach sunday school to show me how it lined up with the bible. not a single one even remotely tried to,but what they did do was get vicious and lie about me and try to stab me in the back.
     
  16. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Bro Tony
    Who is refusing to uphold God as their standard. The Holy Bible is mine I like the NIV my self and the NLT.

    As far as symbols I guess it depends on how you look at it. The Church uses a Lamb to represent Christ thou He is not an animal but the Living God. Also the Lion is used to represent Christ


    John 1:29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

    A Star and Scepture are used to represent Christ the Star is known as the Star of Jacob which is a five pointed Star.

    The Bible uses many symbols to represent Christ.


    Bro Tony
    Are you a former Mason. If not than how do you know for sure it did not get its Ritual from them.

    13 And now I have sent a cunning man, endued with understanding, of Huram my father’s,
    14 The son of a woman of the daughters of Dan, and his father was a man of Tyre, skilful to work in gold, and in silver, in brass, in iron, in stone, and in timber, in purple, in blue, and in fine linen, and in crimson; also to grave any manner of graving, and to find out every device which shall be put to him, with thy cunning men, and with the cunning men of my lord David thy father.
    15 Now therefore the wheat, and the barley, the oil, and the wine, which my lord hath spoken of, let him send unto his servants:


    1Kings 7:13 ¶ And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre.
    14 He was a widow’s son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.
    15 For he cast two pillars of brass, of eighteen cubits high apiece: and a line of twelve cubits did compass either of them about.
    16 And he made two chapiters of molten brass, to set upon the tops of the pillars: the height of the one chapiter was five cubits, and the height of the other chapiter was five cubits:
    17 And nets of checker work, and wreaths of chain work, for the chapiters which were upon the top of the pillars; seven for the one chapiter, and seven for the other chapiter.
    18 And he made the pillars, and two rows round about upon the one network, to cover the chapiters that were upon the top, with pomegranates: and so did he for the other chapiter.
    19 And the chapiters that were upon the top of the pillars were of lily work in the porch, four cubits.
    20 And the chapiters upon the two pillars had pomegranates also above, over against the belly which was by the network: and the pomegranates were two hundred in rows round about upon the other chapiter.
    21 And he set up the pillars in the porch of the temple: and he set up the right pillar, and called the name thereof Jachin: and he set up the left pillar, and called the name thereof Boaz.
    22 And upon the top of the pillars was lily work: so was the work of the pillars finished.
    23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
    24 And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast.
    25 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.
    26 And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths.
    27 And he made ten bases of brass; four cubits was the length of one base, and four cubits the breadth thereof, and three cubits the height of it.
    28 And the work of the bases was on this manner: they had borders, and the borders were between the ledges:
    29 And on the borders that were between the ledges were lions, oxen, and cherubims: and upon the ledges there was a base above: and beneath the lions and oxen were certain additions made of thin work.
    30 And every base had four brasen wheels, and plates of brass: and the four corners thereof had undersetters: under the laver were undersetters molten, at the side of every addition.
    31 And the mouth of it within the chapiter and above was a cubit: but the mouth thereof was round after the work of the base, a cubit and an half: and also upon the mouth of it were gravings with their borders, foursquare, not round.
    32 And under the borders were four wheels; and the axletrees of the wheels were joined to the base: and the height of a wheel was a cubit and half a cubit.
    33 And the work of the wheels was like the work of a chariot wheel: their axletrees, and their naves, and their felloes, and their spokes, were all molten.
    34 And there were four undersetters to the four corners of one base: and the undersetters were of the very base itself.
    35 And in the top of the base was there a round compass of half a cubit high: and on the top of the base the ledges thereof and the borders thereof were of the same.
    36 For on the plates of the ledges thereof, and on the borders thereof, he graved cherubims, lions, and palm trees, according to the proportion of every one, and additions round about.
    37 After this manner he made the ten bases: all of them had one casting, one measure, and one size.
    38 Then made he ten lavers of brass: one laver contained forty baths: and every laver was four cubits: and upon every one of the ten bases one laver.
    39 And he put five bases on the right side of the house, and five on the left side of the house: and he set the sea on the right side of the house eastward over against the south.
    40 And Hiram made the lavers, and the shovels, and the basons. So Hiram made an end of doing all the work that he made king Solomon for the house of the LORD:
    41 The two pillars, and the two bowls of the chapiters that were on the top of the two pillars; and the two networks, to cover the two bowls of the chapiters which were upon the top of the pillars;
    42 And four hundred pomegranates for the two networks, even two rows of pomegranates for one network, to cover the two bowls of the chapiters that were upon the pillars;
    43 And the ten bases, and ten lavers on the bases;
    44 And one sea, and twelve oxen under the sea;
    45 And the pots, and the shovels, and the basons: and all these vessels, which Hiram made to king Solomon for the house of the LORD, were of bright brass.
    46 In the plain of Jordan did the king cast them, in the clay ground between Succoth and Zarthan.
    47 And Solomon left all the vessels unweighed, because they were exceeding many: neither was the weight of the brass found out.
    48 ¶ And Solomon made all the vessels that pertained unto the house of the LORD: the altar of gold, and the table of gold, whereupon the shewbread was,
    49 And the candlesticks of pure gold, five on the right side, and five on the left, before the oracle, with the flowers, and the lamps, and the tongs of gold,
    50 And the bowls, and the snuffers, and the basons, and the spoons, and the censers of pure gold; and the hinges of gold, both for the doors of the inner house, the most holy place, and for the doors of the house, to wit, of the temple.
    51 So was ended all the work that king Solomon made for the house of the LORD. And Solomon brought in the things which David his father had dedicated; even the silver, and the gold, and the vessels, did he put among the treasures of the house of the LORD.

    2 Chronicles 4:16 The pots also, and the shovels, and the fleshhooks, and all their instruments, did Huram his father make to king Solomon for the house of the LORD of bright brass.
     
  17. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    preacherchris
    I just posted the above for Bro Tony it may help you as well. It talks about Hiram and what he done at the Temple which is what Freemaosnry aslo says. Althou the Bible only gives us what Hiram done in the Temple Freemasonry develope a story around this character to teach lessons of Charity, Brotherly Love and Keeping Your Word.
     
  18. frewtloop

    frewtloop Guest

    This is exactly what a lot of people believe, and it is only because they are not acquainted with its history. If you go back to some of the earliest known Masonic manuscripts, particularly the Regius and Cooke manuscripts, the Christian influence is unmistakable. (Please pardon the length, but I quote in entirety the relevant portion, because (1) there are significant statements interspersed throughout, and (2) being one who is naturally suspicious in debate when I see " . . . . ," I am generally disinclined toward omissions):

    TW

    P.S. Any takers yet on the source of "neither naked nor clothed, barefoot nor shod?"
     
  19. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    Jacob,

    First, I will answer your question about whether I am a former mason. The answer is no. I am a pastor who preaches and teaches the Gospel of Jesus. I am offended by any group that adds to or takes away from or alters that beautiful message. I cannot understand even the need for a Christian man to be involved in masonry. If they were serving the Lord and His church they would have the time or the inclination to be involved in masonry. Masonry claims to make good men better. That is not the truth. If one worps the Word the result cannot be better, no matter what they worp the Word with.

    I am familiar with masonry through much study and in dealing with it in my church. I have attempted to do the simple thing that preacherchris spoke of, that is ask professing Christian brothers to examine freemasonry in light of Scripture and if there was no conflict I would have no problem with it. The result was pretty much the same as preacherchris.

    I have read ritual manuals given to me by former masons who saw the light and came out of masonry. I have their personal testimonies. I even possess a masonic bible, which is the KJV, with much information in the beginning that explains freemasonry. I have thoroughly studied it and find that it is a clear abomination and adulteration of truth.

    As to your myths of Hiram King of Tyre and Solomon's building of the Temple. This is another cases of taking biblical truth and expanding it with no biblical evidence to create a basis for your false belief system. Hiram was a worker of metals not masonry. Solomon used many people from many lands to help in building the Temple, and myths can be made of all of them. From this passage the masons have created another mythilogical individual, Hiram Abiff, which is part of the initiation ceremony to become a master mason. Again with no biblical evidence, but misusing the Bible to make ignorant people believe that it is the basis for your system. A blasphemous system at that.

    I do not have to be a mason to know what goes on. I have thouroughly studied it and know that it has nothing to do with biblical Christianity, and that it is leading men away from Christ. If "The Worm" who is supposedly a woman, can speak to it, I certainly can.

    I will not debate with you, for you have chosen to walk in the darkness of freemasonry. I will continue to pray that the Lord will bring you into His marvelous light. He is your only hope. If you have Him you need nothing else.

    Bro Tony
     
  20. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    TW

    More masonic propaganda, with no Scriptural basis. Just because in the past apostate masons who claimed to be Christian wrote these words do not make them truth. Just because a select portion of Scripture is used in the lodge, does not make the lodge of God.

    After all the enemy of God, Satan, did not mind using Scripture in his temptations of Jesus. That is what makes this so insidious, the blasphemous attempt to turn the work of Satan into the work of God.

    You can quote your masonic revision of history until your blue in the face and it will not make any difference. I do not receive the words of unbelievers and heretics as a source of authority on truth. Every cult group that exists worps the truth of the Scripture to justify their system of belief, the same is true of masonry.

    Why don't you just follow Jesus in the institution He established--His Church.

    Bro Tony
     
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