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Why Would a Pastor Condone Freemasonry

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by O.F.F., May 22, 2004.

  1. frewtloop

    frewtloop Guest

    The story in the ritual is completely symbolic and allegorical, making what it "is" irrelevant. The key is what it teaches.

    Makes refuting it easier, when you post statements that won't stand up anyway. It's been said again and again, GAOTU is a statement that God is Creator. Freemasonry requires a belief in one God, and calls Him Architect of the Universe, no way you can misconstrue it and get something besides the one who created all things. And so your statement becomes internally inconsistent, affirming with the first part the exact thing Freemasonry affirms, then making what becomes a non sequitur with the second.

    At least you agree the prayer sounds righteous, that's a start. But "calls" the name Jehovah? That's like someone criticizing you as a Christian and saying you only "call" His name Jesus. Well, where do you suppose they got that name, out of a hat? Bottom line is, a challenge was offered that a ritual could not be found with "Jehovah" in it, one was produced, which should thus refute the argument, except that now you try to spin it after the fact rather than concede the least point.

    That's got the cart way before the horse. I daresay Jacob has never rejected Him, from his testimony in here

    I've never seen where Freemasonry or any Freemason has said that God resides anywhere but in heaven. Right address fer sure.

    TW

    [ June 01, 2004, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: TheWorm ]
     
  2. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    (How can the ungodly be united in His Holy name?
    How can Christians utter such words to unite them to ungodly religions that reject the very God Whose Name this prayer invokes?
    Again, the answer He has already given in His Holy Word , and it is completely disagreeable with all of the above.)
    Than they have to reject their religion to invoke it. I have asked sevarl brothers about such teachings of Freemasonry which teach a Christian theachings. I thought that a Muslum would really need to bit His tounge for some of it because it talks about Christ and the Trinity.

    Again I presented evidence that YHWH is the God in the Ritual but you just refuse to acept it. You will try to twist things to mean something they do not.
     
  3. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Let me make it simple.

    Masons cause doubt, and sometimes fear among others. There are secret rituals and the like that no matter how pure or simple cause others to doubt the integrity of Christians who claim to be Masons.
    Masons will help another Mason before they will help someone else, or at the least it is admitted that they should not refuse to help a fellow mason in need. This is an anti-biblical approach as it promotes Masons as being more worthy of charity and kindness from you than others are.

    Whether or not you believe there is anything inherently evil or not about masonry is beside the point. Any Christian with a bit of common sense will look at these few simple facts and say "hrm, by joining this group I may cause my fellow Christians to stumble. I will definitely have some people who doubt the truth of Christ in me because I associate with this group. I will not fully know what all masonry involved until I reach higher levels which may take quite a while. Maybe this simply isn't the best thing for me to be a part of."
    Whether or not you are personally involved in anything wrong while in this group is not even a part of the point. Simply by association you've already created a breeding ground for thorns to crop up from.
    Is it really worth it? Is it really something you believe you can do and face the Lord with a clear conscious over?
    Gina
     
  4. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    (Masons will help another Mason before they will help someone else, or at the least it is admitted that they should not refuse to help a fellow mason in need)

    Gina L
    Masonic Charity does not just mean only Masons. They help Schools last month they feed all of the childern and provided refreshments and not all of them belong to Mason's family a majority did not. We built a ramp two months earlier for an elderly Woman who did not have any relative in the Lodge. We do not just help only Masons we try to help all those in need in possible. We provided Scholarships for some kids and shoes for others.


    (Simply by association you've already created a breeding ground for thorns to crop up from.
    Is it really worth it? Is it really something you believe you can do and face the Lord with a clear conscious over?)

    Yes it is worth it and Yes I can face Christ with a clear conscious. There are lot of things that may cause people to doubt Christ in me depending on their view. Like for instance I do not believe there is a such thing as marrier out side you race when married someone of another nationality. To some Christians this may cause them to stumble as the do not accept White and Black Marriages as I do they may doubt how can I be a Christian and promote mix marriages. When it is there view of mix marriages that is wrong.

    I may have caused others to stumble because I said it is ok to praise God with trumpets and electric gutiars and rap music. They do know how I can claim to be a Christian and listen to Christian Rock and Christian Rap because it is not Gosphel Music on which they think is the only way to sing about God.

    I believe in a Young Earth this has caused some of my Christian Brothers to stumble that I would believe that God created in 6days anf that the Earth is around 6000yrs old and they say how can a Christian believe this when science says otherwise they think I am extreme in my views of creation.

    There are alot of things I can say that are True that will cause a Christian to stumble and second guess them selves like you have to be called to Salvation. You can not just go to the alter say I accpet Christ and go away. You have to be called. Thou it is True and goes with Biblical Teaching it can still cause a Christian to stumble because of there preset beliefs caused by Tradition.

    And this one is another Big one. I read out of the NIV. I was brought up KJ Only I can tell a brother it is easier to read and it may cause Him to stumble do to He is taught that it is wrong and takes away from God's word.

    I believe also Alvin York had some problems with other Christians fighting in the war because they were killing people. It caused Him alot of heartache. Until He understood that they were fighting and killing to protect not to murder.
     
  5. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Aslo I would like to add does telling a Christian that because He is a Mason, He is going to Burn in Hell. Does this count as causing a Brother Christian to Stumble.
     
  6. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    No Jacob, I do not think it is ok for anyone to tell another Christian they are going to burn in hell, Mason or not.
    I agree that the Masons have been involved in some wonderful activities and helping out their communities.
    I do disagree with you on some of your points. What you feel is the best translation of the bible, the type of music you feel honors God, etc., are things that are personal decisions. There are no scriptures that say "playing a song at this pace is wrong, or using this instrument is unacceptable to God".
    What there are consists of verses that tell us to not esteem one man or group over another. Masonry strongly promotes esteeming Masons and giving credit and benefits to a Mason over a non-member, does it not? Do you not pledge to have a higher degree of loyalty to fellow masons over other brothers and sisters in Christ?
    Can you not see that the secrecy of the group is in itself iffy if not in direct contradiction to what the scriptures state? If all that is done is good, why is it done in secret? "No man lights a candle and hides it under a bushel". Yet this is what is being done.
    This is how I see things Jacob. This is how a number of Christians I know of see Masonry. If you want to continue in it that is your choice and I couldn't condemn you for it if I wanted to, but I can tell you that it is a group that causes me to be concerned for you and others that are in it.
    Gina
     
  7. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Gina
    (Masonry strongly promotes esteeming Masons and giving credit and benefits to a Mason over a non-member, does it not? Do you not pledge to have a higher degree of loyalty to fellow masons over other brothers and sisters in Christ?)

    Masonry does try to make sure people who belong to the Lodge are took care of first, just as we try to make sure our families are took care of before trying to take care of another. What does it say about masons if they do not take care of each other. As far as a pledge of Higher degree over my brothers and sisters in Christ no because my First duty is to God. But again I will have to make sure my house is in order before trying to help another.

    (Can you not see that the secrecy of the group is in itself iffy if not in direct contradiction to what the scriptures state? If all that is done is good, why is it done in secret?)

    The secret parts are more of Tradition to remind us of the time when Freemasons were killed for being Freemasons. I believe Historian John Robinson may have alluded to Freemaosonry have a part in the prodestant movement. Hence another reason for being hunted down and tortured and killed.


    (No man lights a candle and hides it under a bushel". Yet this is what is being done)

    No this is not what is being done we are active in charities and helping women and childern and those in need, non Mason and Mason a like. We built a house with Habitate for Humanity for for a lady whose house was destoried by a tornado. The Kinights Templar built a house without anyone else assit for a person in the same community. After futher study there seems to be at least 15 house built with the help of the Masonic Lodge. Freemasonry teaches brotherly Love and charity this is not hidden but practiced thru charity work and other means.
     
  8. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Jacob, help me to understand this better please.
    Freemasons were KILLED? Wow. For what?
    Were they a type of church or religious group separate from others?
    If this is simply a club type group going around doing good things, why not simply continue doing them through your local church and avoid the bad things people think of Masons? Wouldn't this be even better as it would promote the name of Jesus to a higher level than when people recognize the work as being done in the name of FreeMasonry?
    And why would remembering bad times be secret? In most groups hard times are documented, taught to others, and used to help promote other people's understanding of that group.
    Gina
     
  9. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Jacob, are disabled men allowed to join Freemasonry?
     
  10. W.D.Rice

    W.D.Rice New Member

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    “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.” (Rev. 3:12)

    Your trumpet needs tuning.

    TW
    </font>[/QUOTE]I was a Master Mason for some ten years, and studied the Craft dilligently. I did not just fall off the last turnip wagon headed into town.

    As to your Scripture reference, it is wholly inapplicable, for it applies ONLY to the Christian. When "The Chairs" are occupied by Muslims, Buddhists, Panthiests, and Pagans, there is no defense to be found for Masonry among Scripture as you attempt to apply it here.

    In Christ,
    W.D. Rice
     
  11. W.D.Rice

    W.D.Rice New Member

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    Mr. Webber,
    How about going back and answering the questions that I did ask, instead of answering questions I did not ask, and heading off into the weeds?

    I offer them again:

    First, from what Ritual is this prayer ? And from what edition?
    It is not from current Tennessee Masonic works, nor from any from the past few decades, that I can find.
    ***Your statements are only as good as how much you can back them up. Stop dodging and offer the proof, or admit the evidence is no good!***

    Next, let's examine this prayer and see what it actually says:


    Almighty and Eternal Jehovah!

    There is nothing wrong with this as it stands, but will it really apply to Masons as a whole? Let's look at the further statements to see the answer.
    ***Jehovah is not the God of anti-Christian religions, I don't care how you try to phrase it away, it just will not work.***

    Great Light of Life! in whom we live, and move, and have our being! Bless the brethren here assembled!

    Since "the brethren here assembled" may be of Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Pantheist, or even Pagan religions, this can not be speaking of "brothers" in Jehovah, since these religions reject Jehovah. By this, we then find that the opening statement becomes disqualified as it cannot apply to all Masons, nor to all men.
    ***Masonry is universal, and you know it. A Mason made in a "Christian" Lodge may sit in "all-faith" Lodges, and vice-versa, and transfer memeberships. Un-Christian and anti-Christian religions are welcomed into Masonry as well. This you can NOT deny.***

    Give them one mind, and influence each one of them by the same zeal! Make them one in name and heart.

    From what we know of Masonry's acceptance of the above false religions, the question must be asked, "Of what "one mind" are these men called to be "one in name and heart", since we now know that it is not Jehovah, and even moreso that it is surely not Jesus Christ?"

    Christians understand the "one mind" that calls us to be "one in name and heart" with Jesus, but these false religions that Masonry welcomes makes Masonry's "one mind" that calls Masons "one in name and heart" very much anti-Christian.

    How can Christians be of "one mind" with false religions?
    How can Christians be "one in name and heart" with false religions?
    God Himself answers these questions in His Holy Word!


    May the Master be firm, prudent, and discreet in discharge of his duties, and as the glorious Sun gives light to the day, may he be enable to enlighten the Lodge, and conduct all things aright!

    This is not as you replied, but calls for the 'Master' to enlighten the Lodge.

    How can a Christian be enlightened by anything but God's Word? No man is called to enlighten another in such as this!
    ***Where you claim it is instruction, where can you be instructed by a non-Christian or ant-Christian in this 'Master's Chair', as he will not enlighten from God's Word, but will pass on false light?***


    May the Wardens be pillars of Strength record what eternal truth shall approve!

    Almighty God is the only pillar of strength! Again what belongs to God is accorded to man in false righteousness and pomposity.
    ***Remember all those non-Christian and anti-Christian religions that Masonry welcomes befor you start chunkin' Scripture around here.***


    May the Deacons be constant as the hours,

    Only God is "constant as the hours", which He Himself ordains! Again a "puffing up" of man before a Holy God.


    and the Tiler be as the eye of a kind Providence which watches unseen over all the works of creation;

    A man "be as the eye of kind Providence"?
    A man be as He that "watches unseen over all the works of creation"?
    ***You will, however find such parallels mad to men an "gods" in the Ancient Mysteries of Chaldea, Egypt, and Babylon, from whence Masonry springs.***


    and may every brother practice out of the Lodge the duties that are inculcated in it.

    These duties are to whom?
    To such a "god" that welcomes false religions about his altar?
    These duties can never be said to be to Jehovah God, because the Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Pantheist, and Pagan which do not serve Him are called to these duties!
    ***All you fellows always dodge around this inescapable point. Christians cannot share any duties to God with such ungodly religions, because they have different "gods".***

    Truth is truth, and can not be ignored here. To apply such a prayer in the name of Jehovah God on behalf of men that reject Him in worship and practice is blasphemy of that Holy and Perfect Name!


    So shall we be built up a spiritual Lodge never to be shaken by storms of adversity; but' cleaving to thy great name, O Eternal Jehovah!

    What Buddhist can make such a prayer to Jehovah? What Pagan and Pantheist can cleave to this Name? Nay, NOT ONE!
    A vain, hollow, and self-righteous prayer that brings shame to the very Holy Name upon Whom it dares to call!
    ***Actually, I did not state this clearly. The shame is upon the one that dares to call upon His Holy Name in such a vain manner.***


    may we be united to thee in love and freedom of soul forever; and to thy most Holy name be praise, now, henceforth and forever.

    How can the ungodly be united in His Holy name?
    How can Christians utter such words to unite them to ungodly religions that reject the very God Whose Name this prayer invokes?
    Again, the answer He has already given in His Holy Word , and it is completely disagreeable with all of the above.


    As to the rest:
    1. The Temple presented in Freemasonry is not, nor ever will be The Temple of God, prepared by David and built by Solomon. The story in the Ritual is completely false.
    ***The Temple presented in Kings and Chronicles is the true one, stop trying to change what I have stated. The one is Masonry is the false one; the two are not the same.

    2. There is no Trinity presented within Freemasonry. If you say it is, then present the evidence. I can present the evidence to the contrary.
    ***I asked you to show it, not merely claim it. Give with the evidence, or be considered as spreading falsities and giving untrue testimony.***

    3. Only One God created all, but you will not find Him in Masonry.
    ***Since Muslim, Buddhist, Panthiest, Pagan, and many others that reject the God that is revealed in The Word, and this "god" of Masonry welcomes them, it is not Jehovah God of The Bible.***

    4. Just because someone makes up a righteous- sounding prayer and calls the name Jehovah, does not mean they have the right God. Like a letter with the right name, but the wrong address, such a prayer is vain and returns empty and hollow.

    Now, would anyone care to answer the questions as they are asked, without leaving over any of them, and without attempting to redirect into issues not asked?


    In Christ,
    W.D. Rice
     
  12. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    Gina, you make some interesting points. As I see it, a good way to sum up Freemasons is "Boy Scouts for adults". People can run around trying to state that a ritual means this or that. Yet consider that it all seems to come from stuff that is written in the 16th century, my point being that when Shakesphere wrote "Romeo Romeo where for art thou Romeo". Most of us would assume that the person is asking where Romeo is. Yet that is not even close to what is actually the question.

    People do seem to want to judge one another. If people want to be in a fraternity, they are free in Christ to be in one. People have no right to tell others that they are going to Hell, that is up to the Lord to decide, and all christians have an assurance of Salvation.

    People feel that by attacking other groups of christians that is the will of God, yet look at where that leads. Some of the discernment sites on all manner of things online are often overgrown with roots of bitterness and not in any way christian at all.

    If people want to be in scouts or masons or whatever group as christians that is up to them it does not have to offend anyone. It is an outright shame that there are stories of people that have been refused help by churches yet are then helped by secular groups. Payment for medical procedures being one area where people have been turned away sick from churches and helped by the para masonic group the Shriners. Not that we have shriners in Australia, but I have read about them online. Apparantly if they did not exist, many people would be alot worse off with no health or food programme.

    The church should be helping more people, yet often we are too busy throwing stones at other denominations to consider helping one another.
     
  13. frewtloop

    frewtloop Guest

    Gina,

    "Anti-biblical?" Then how about Galatians 6:10:

    And then there's 1 Timothy 5:8:

    It appears to be a thoroughly biblical principle. And a case might be made for it being a thoroughly Christian principle, as it seems to have no OT parallel. And (imo) it seems to have been adopted straight from the passage in Galatians, with the "especially those of the household of faith" corresponding to "more especially brother Masons."

    The old saying I've always heard was, "Charity begins in the home." I don't know if that aphorism was drawn from this scripture, but it has that ring of truth to it. And it appears the scriptures make the statement about the home, and draw the circle wider to include the "extended family" of the "household of faith."

    That being said, I still can't say I agree that this is an accurate description of Masonic charity, that it is mostly done in a self-interested way. But I don't have the information necessary to say that with any authority.

    TW
     
  14. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Gina
    Just like many other people and groups at the Time they were acussed of Heresy. And on the other note it is like a group of Boy Scouts.


    Marcia
    (Jacob, are disabled men allowed to join Freemasonry?)

    To a point they are if they are mentaly unable to understand than no. But there is a Man who sits in my Lodge who does not have Legs.

    (First, from what Ritual is this prayer ? And from what edition?
    It is not from current Tennessee Masonic works, nor from any from the past few decades, that I can find.
    ***Your statements are only as good as how much you can back them up. Stop dodging and offer the proof, or admit the evidence is no good!*** )

    WD

    I told you it is from the black Masonic Text Book 4th Edition.


    (Jehovah is not the God of anti-Christian religions, I don't care how you try to phrase it away, it just will not work.***)
    I said no matter if you worship Himor not you will answer to Him.

    Great Light of Life it is talking about Jehovah that is why it says JEHOVAH. Yes Freemasonry is open to a lot but not all faiths. And those who did not believe in Jehovah just had to be quiet about it. Again thou I have stated many times before Jehovah was changed to Great Arcitech of the Universe from John Calvin due to Jews could not say the name of God.


    May the Master be firm, prudent, and discreet in discharge of his duties, and as the glorious Sun gives light to the day, may he be enable to enlighten (Instruct) the Lodge, and conduct all things aright!

    Wardens
    again WD were is it wrong to pray for men to record the Truth that God would aprove off in other words be honest.

    May the Deacons be constant as the hours,
    Again WD quiet reaching it is simple think of it a soilder who dielvers messages from one commander to the other you wnat this man to be someone to depend on to be constant.


    (and may every brother practice out of the Lodge the duties that are inculcated in it)

    Duties: Brotherly Love and Charity

    (Christians cannot share any duties to God with such ungodly religions, because they have different "gods)

    Ok WD I will longer help the needed, feed the sick or shelter the Homeless because someone I work with does not believe the same as me. Is that what you want WD you want to just work with Christians to heal the sick you know what happens WD. There was a Muslim Doctor who found a cure for the Black Plague he said if you pop the boils and fill them with sulfer they will heal and they did althou it was really painful. But the people at the time would not accept it because it came from a Muslim Doctor not a Christian Doctor. How many people could have lived if they listened.


    (What Buddhist can make such a prayer to Jehovah? What Pagan and Pantheist can cleave to this Name? Nay, NOT ONE!)

    You are starting to come around WD like I said before the Muslim Jew and others will have to bite there tongue thru parts of Freemasonry due to the refrences to the Trinity and Christ. So it is they who have to comprimise not the Christian.

    (How can the ungodly be united in His Holy name)

    Than it must not be fore them. Again Freemaosnry seemed to be a Christian only Frat and in some countries it still is.

    1. Unless there are two temples Solomon created to YHWH than they are the same.

    2. The SBC study presented the Evidence you can read it in Fundimentalism and Freemasonry by Gary Leazer. Plus it is in your craftsmen

    3. If you do not believe YHWH created the universe than that is your choice. YHWH is present in the Ritual the Prayer I posted can go to any of the Rituals.

    4. True, But in these case it is YHWH.
     
  15. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Gina
    One other thing there is a time I would put some without Christ above someone who has Christ that is if I had to chose who I would have to save first in a Life or death instants I would choose to save the life of the Lost person because if the Christian dies He will be with Christ. The other needs to live more to ascept Christ.
     
  16. frewtloop

    frewtloop Guest

    W.D.,

    Your letter, technically, is addressed to Jacob, however, the signoff says:

    Therefore, I assume it in order for "anyone" to respond
    Seems to me if anyone is ducking around the issues or questions, it is you. The original question concerning this whole point was, "you can't find Jehovah mentioned in lodge ritual." Jacob has now shown that you can. So now "Jehovah is not the God of anti-Christian religions" gets thrown in as a new twist, so you can reframe it as it suits you.

    Spoken, of course, as one who has already determined (incorrectly) that these men come together under one religion. They do not, they come together fraternally. Brotherhood of Man is a brotherhood of creation, not of preferred religion.

    One in brotherly love, relief, and truth. And I can pretty much predict which one you will attack.

    Everything I've seen on the subject says the same, that in Masonry, "light" = "knowledge." Now anyone can enlighten someone else by informing them of knowledge they did not have previously. You make more of this than is there.

    My, what a low regard for Scripture, I'm shocked, especially coming from a premier Scripture-chunker. Your statement is irrelevant anyway, as you yourself are disregarding the fact that most members in this country would be described as Christian, all other religions are extreme minorities here. But that's not why I say the statement is irrelevant. The challenge you offered was, "only God is a pillar of strength." Scripture soundly refutes you on the point, God has made many people "pillars of strength," and many are called exactly that by Him:

    You seem to read this with a narrowed view, "constancy" here is simply "faithfulness"--and how it comes to be "puffing up" when this is a prayer asking God for it is a mystery.

    What you seem to miss is that the language is more poetic in nature than anything else. Prayer is offered that the master be enabled to enlighten "as the glorious Sun gives light to the day" (simile); "May the Wardens be pillars of Strength" (metaphor); "May the Deacons be constant as the hours" (simile); "and the Tiler be as the eye of a kind Providence" (simile). Simple language of poetry, "to be" something is the language of metaphor, "to be like (or as)" something is the language of metaphor. Not surprising, either, that an organization that employs such highly symbolic rituals and objects would also use the language of imagery.

    No one "shares" his/her duties to God, they are his/her own.

    "But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For each one shall bear his own load." (Galatians 6:4-5)

    You forget one thing: if they reject this name, or object to its being there in the ritual, then wouldn't they demit? In spite of your bluster about blasphemy (a mischaracterization), no one is rejecting the name. You keep drawing this false picture of a lodge full of mostly "Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Pantheist, or even Pagan religions"--so I put forth the challenge now, can you find one single lodge in this country where that is so? I dare say you will be hard pressed to find a single professing "Zoroastrian" in any lodge. And don't come back with a triumphant "AHA!" even if you find one, because that would be such a far cry from the nature of U.S. Grand Lodges as to be farcical. You were a lodge member yourself once, I assume you know better, and therefore are guilty of intentional and persistent misrepresentation on this point. We are discussing, after all, from a basic viewpoint of U.S. lodges, since every time it comes down to specifics, those specifics involve various U.S. lodges. We have had quotes from KY lodge, from Nevada, from TN, from SC, from FLA, etc. etc. Given the overwhelming majority that Christianity has held since this country's beginnings, by Masonic definition there is not a Grand Lodge in this country that would not be considered a "Christian" lodge, with the Holy Bible as its VSL, and any other VSL requested would be placed on the altar only by individual request, and even then in addition, not in place of, the Holy Bible.

    (and that's one more re-frame of the actual picture or question at hand)

    Yet another reframe of yours. Masons do not unite to religions, they unite to other Masons--and that fraternally, not religiously.

    When all is said and done, true or false is irrelevant; "temple" is ultimately a symbol of the body. ("Do you not know that your body is a temple?", 1 Cor. 6:19).

    Since the Holy Bible is the VSL of (as far as I know) any lodge you will find in the U.S., and since it is the source of the name "Jehovah," I'm afraid the burden of proof is still on you to prove otherwise, which so far you have not. The "Muslim, Buddhist, Panthiest, Pagan, and many others" that you continue to repeat is, as I've already shown, a false construction when used of U.S. lodges in general, and the TN lodge in particular, since that one is where this began.

    (1) The ritual used the name "Jehovah," a refererence to the same name of God affirmed in the Bible as given to Moses;

    (2) Freemasonry nowhere claims that God lives anywhere other than heaven;

    (3) Therefore: right name, right address


    TW
     
  17. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Worm, that is EXACTLY my point. It does not say "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of Masons." It says of FAITH.

    Jacob, why were they accused of heresy? My question is, were they a religious group? Are they still a religious group (if they were one to start with)? If not what changed all that?

    Gina
     
  18. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Gina
    I believe it comes according to historian John Robinson from Pope Clement V who ordered the Knights Templar(Know then I believe as the Poor Knights of Christ) they were Monks who had aquirred alot of land and money in France and other places in Europe the Pope ordered the Knights Templars to be tortured until they admitted Heresy which they did. according to Mr. Robinson the Pope above mentioned was French and created a pack with the King of France King Phillip the Fair. King Phillip had already seized the land and money of the jews and was in dept to the Templars from the war with England. So the Pope said the Templars commited Heresy and the King then seized their money and lands in France thus elminating the debt owed to the Knights Templar. Also the torture according to Robinson eludes to the penalties of the Oaths taken in Freemasonry.
     
  19. frewtloop

    frewtloop Guest

    Gina,

    I fail to see the problem. You are excising one and applying it to the other and destroying the analogy completely. You complained that Masons take care of their own. I drew an analogy that says "Christians also take care of their own." Whether or not you choose to consider Masons to be of the household of faith is irrelevant. I was only pointing out that the Christian principle applied to the same situation is the same, "give specific attention to taking care of your own."

    TW
     
  20. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Thanks for the info Jacob. I can learn something new on here every day!
    One last question. Would there be any fear on your part of repercussions should you choose to leave?
    Gina
     
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