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Why would the Pope pray in a mosque?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by LadyEagle, Feb 1, 2003.

  1. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Hello Kate,

    Let me say that I agree with the stance you are taking. However, you are not correct about the name Allah being borrowed by Islam thus making it the name for a false god. The word Allah is the Arabic word for "God" or "god" it is not a proper noun just as "God" is not a proper noun in English. If we were to speak of the God of the Bible in Arabic we would use the word Allah. You may find the thread entitled "Your Chance to Defend Islam" on this forum informative on this issue. The Allah of Mohammad is not the same as Yahweh (the God of the Bible). However, you are approaching the argument from the wrong direction.

    The nature and essence of the Triune God as revealed in the Bible and the nature and essence of Allah as revealed in the Quran are two mutually exclusive definitions and can not be reconciled. Sorry Carson, you are mistaken on this one.

    [ February 02, 2003, 04:09 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
     
  2. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Hello Carson,

    While you are correct in pointing out the Muslim belief in an invisible uncreated Allah, you have only uncovered a similarity between the God of the Bible, Yahweh, and the Quranic Allah of Mohammad. You must dig into the Islamic definition of the nature and essence of Allah. The nature and essence of God as revealed in the Bible and the nature and essence of Allah as revealed in the Quran are mutually exclusive and cannot be reconciled.
     
  3. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    The nature and essence of God as revealed in the Bible and the nature and essence of Allah as revealed in the Quran are mutually exclusive and cannot be reconciled.

    So would you say that the Jews are idolaters as well? That the nature and essence of the Jewish God is not the nature and essence of the Christian God?

    Remember, Jews reject the doctrine of the Trinity and believe Christians to be idolaters.

    In fact, the Gnostics gained many of their converts by stressing that the God of the Old Testament couldn't be the God of the New Testament.

    If someone you know, Bibleboy, professes for you to have two arms and someone else told me that you have one arm, then your friend will correctly understand your nature to include two arms. However, I, who are address, you, Bibleboy, will insist - in my ignorance - that you have only one arm. Am I not addressing you? Simply because I deny your nature, am I making up a "false" Bibleboy and I'm not thinking about "you" at all? Of course not. Simply because my channel of communication is faulty does not mean that my "Bibleboy" is a completely separate "Bibleboy" than your friend's. Think about it..
     
  4. show me

    show me New Member

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    Hi Kate B!

    Do you believe in the Rapture?? Where is that in the Bible?

    It is my understanding that the Rapture is taught as doctrine in Baptist Churches. Am I wrong?
     
  5. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    The rapture is taught in the bible, and the meaning of the word rapture in english is in the bible, it means 'caught up'. And if you do not believe in the rapture I feel sorry for you.
     
  6. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    And if you do not believe in the rapture I feel sorry for you.

    Considering that the Rapture (as advocated by Premillennialists) was a doctrine neither taught nor believed before J.N. Darby?

    Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture — though it was not called that at the time — would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution.
     
  7. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    Kate B,

    From a Catholic perspective, there is really no problem with rapture as 2 Thes 4:17 does say we will be caught up with him. The problem is this prep-trib rapture stuff. You see it's just not in the Bible that we will be spared the tribulation. And I find it down right stange that we in comfortable america would be spared the tribulation when thousands of Christians in the first century's of the Church were thrown to the lions and beheaded and abused in every sort of way. In our own day millions of Christians are persecuted and imprisioned for Christ. No rapture. In fact in 2000 years, not one Christan that has had to undergo intense persecution has been raptured. Jesus says that if we wish to be his disciple we must take up our cross and follow him so suffering is a part of the path we need to follow in this world. The pre-trib rapturists do not embrace the cross, they deny it. Further there is no third coming of Christ. The angels in Acts 1 say that we will see him come back just as he left. Nowhere does it say that he will come and then come again.

    Blessings
     
  8. show me

    show me New Member

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    Hi Kate B:

    "And if you do not believe in the rapture I feel sorry for you."

    Why? Is this belief necessary to my salvation??
    It seems that so many of us protestants are so pre-occupied by a "doctrine" that is non-essential that non-believers wonder what is up. I attended an evangelistic crusade where the two so called evangelist got into a shouting match over this "doctrine" and half people who were there left. Sad, huh!

    My point was, you were trying to apply something to the Catholics that could just as easily be applied to protestants. Do you see that? It is a matter of fairness. I don't find the word "pre-millenial" in the Bible, but you probably say that is in there, don't you? Or maybe your amillenial or post-millenial. How about being a dispensationalist Baptist. Is that term in the Bible?? Calvinists??
     
  9. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    No I would not say that they are idolaters because they do not worship an idol. God has revealed His Triune nature in the O.T. Jews have simply failed to recognize and/or understand it. However, that is not what Mohammad did. He made up a god that he called "Allah" who is directly contrary to Yahweh God of the Bible, and the two can not be reconciled. Additionally, while I would not go so far as to say the Jews are idolaters I would say that they are lost. They are desperately in need of the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, because He came to them first and they rejected Him.

    Your logic here will breakdown on several fronts. First, your logic is flawed in that I am not God and I have not revealed myself to you in the Bible. Second, the problem is not that Mohammad misidentified Yahweh God or misunderstood God's nature and essence. The problem is that the "Allah" that Mohammad made up, while having one or two similarities with Yahweh God, is completely contrary to Yahweh God. Plus, when confronted with the true nature of Yahweh, the Triune God, Mohammad made up more pronouncments that totally rejected the truth that had been set before him because he (Mohammad) so hated polytheism that he could not accept that God could have a Son or a Holy Spirit. Third, if we follow your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion we could end up worshiping anything as "God." You know..."God" is a tree, a cat, a pickup truck, money, etc. As long as I really believe that one of these things is really "God," even though I am totally wrong, I am still really worshiping God and He will forgive me for rejecting His Word and who He truely is. Sounds like New Age to me.
     
  10. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Hello Carson,

    I found this article very informative and helpful in addressing the issue that we are discussing. In fact, it has helped me to soften my former hard-line view that all Muslims are idolaters. I do understand that most Muslims are sincere seekers after God and that they have been deceived. I hope that we can at least agree that all Muslims are lost and that they need to come to salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Article Link: Is the God of Mohammad the Father of Jesus?
     
  11. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Bibleboy

    No I would not say that they are idolaters because they do not worship an idol.

    I agree. And, so the Muslims are not idolaters as they do not worship an idol.

    God has revealed His Triune nature in the O.T. Jews have simply failed to recognize and/or understand it.

    You're kidding with me, right? The Triunity of God was not revealed until the Son of God came in the Incarnation to reveal it.

    I know what verses you're speaking of. It's just that I don't agree with how they are interpreted through Christian lenses to say what they really aren't saying on the Historical-Literal level.

    However, that is not what Mohammad did. He made up a god that he called "Allah" who is directly contrary to Yahweh God of the Bible, and the two can not be reconciled.

    How can you "make up" the one invisible eternal omnipresent, omnipotent God? You can't. This God's existence and attributes are knowable through reason alone, as the early pagan Roman and Greek philosophers such as Seneca and Cicero attest to.

    Additionally, while I would not go so far as to say the Jews are idolaters I would say that they are lost. They are desperately in need of the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, because He came to them first and they rejected Him.

    I agree.

    Your logic here will breakdown on several fronts.

    It's an analogy, and all analogies fail at some point, so this shouldn't be a surprise for either of us.

    when confronted with the true nature of Yahweh, the Triune God, Mohammad made up more pronouncments that totally rejected the truth that had been set before him because he (Mohammad) so hated polytheism that he could not accept that God could have a Son or a Holy Spirit.

    So? How does this show the Muslims don't believe in the one true God? The Jews have done the same; they have rejected the Triunity of God, and they still believe in the one true God.

    if we follow your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion we could end up worshiping anything as "God."

    Absolutely not. That is a non sequitur. I'm speaking of recognizing the one true God who is eternal, infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, uncreated, the first Mover, the uncaused cause, the Creator of heaven and earth.

    This is the God that Muslims, Jews, and Christians all profess faith in.

    This is in no way condones idolatry.

    I do understand that most Muslims are sincere seekers after God and that they have been deceived. I hope that we can at least agree that all Muslims are lost and that they need to come to salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Agreed.

    God bless,

    Carson
     
  12. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Hello Carson,

    Please forgive me for not responding right away. I have not been around a computer for the past few days. Anyway, I really enjoy having this kind of discussion. So here goes...

    Does Islam teach belief in the God of Abraham as He (God) is defined by the Old Testament? Let’s see… “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep, And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” (Genesis 1:1-2, KJV). Here we have what appears to be, at the very least, God in two persons. We see God and the Spirit of God active in the creation of the cosmos. Then in Genesis 18 Abraham is visited by three men whom he addresses as “My Lord,” and they speak to Abraham with one voice in verse 5 (Genesis 18:1-15). This appears to be God in three persons. Finally, looking back upon the Genesis account through the further revelation of the New Testament we understand that in actuality all three persons of the Triune God were present and active in the creation event (see John 1:1-5). So by these and other texts we see that God is one God in three persons. Therefore, the God of Christianity is understood by Trinitarian Monotheism. Plus, He is a personal God who reveals and discloses Himself to mankind (this is an important distinction between the God of Abraham and the Allah of Mohammad).

    According to Islam, Allah is one. Islam teaches a strict form of radical monotheism. There is no possibility of “God the Holy Spirit” and certainly not a “God the Son” (I’ll come back to this point later). Likewise, the Allah of Mohammad is not a personal god and does not disclose himself to mankind. This is why the angel Gabriel had to be the one to convey the message of the Quran to Mohammad. Allah could not be soiled by direct communication with a mere man. Hence, is it really accurate to say that Islam teaches belief in the God of Abraham, the God of both the Old Testament and of the New Testament? I think not. Remember, God spoke directly to Abraham and even came and visited him (Gen. 18:1-15). The very definitions of the Biblical God of Abraham, Yahweh, and the Quranic Allah of Mohammad prevent the validity of such a claim. From a theological prospective, there may well be points of similarity between Yahweh (God) of the Bible and the Quranic Allah of Mohammad; however, in the end when we consider the specific details that define the two we cannot make the claim that they are one and the same.

    For example, the Quranic conception of Allah is strictly Unitarian, because God is seen as one and one only. Mohammad considered the very notion of a “fatherhood” of Allah, which he associated with a sexual procreation of a son, as highly blasphemous. This is because of the highly sensualist version of Allah and his three daughters that were part of the pre-Islamic Maccan religion (I made a post about this pre-Islamic religion of Mecca in this forum). Since this idea conveyed notions of sexual activity on the part of Allah, Mohammad had no use for the idea of Christ as the Son of God, or for the Trinity, not to mention his rejection of the Holy Spirit. Clearly, Mohammad did not understand the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The Quran indicates that Mohammad thought that the Christian Trinity consisted of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary the Mother (5:116). Finally, in all forms of theism (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) there are two characteristics of God. One is that He is transcendent (greater than the world, and not limited by it) and immanent (active within the world). However, in Islam a far greater emphasis is placed upon Allah’s transcendence. Again, that is why the angel Gabriel had to be the one to convey the message of the Quran to Mohammad. Allah could not be soiled by direct communication with a mere human. With that all said suffice it to say that there are sharp distinctions between the Biblical God of Abraham, Yahweh, and the Quranic Allah of Mohammad that cannot be overlooked or reconciled. What is the God of the Bible if not the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? And what is the Muslim God (Allah) if not the revealer of the Quran? However, these two descriptions are mutually exclusive.

    Finally, we must be very careful not to confuse the beliefs of modern Reform Judaism, modern Conservative Judaism, or modern Orthodox Judaism with the beliefs of Old Testament Judaism. However, a simple straight forward reading of the O.T. reveals that the ancient Hebrews understood the biblical God of Abraham in His person as "God the Father." Moses would wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that the radical monotheism of Islam is worshiping Yahweh God. Deuteronomy 31:30 records how Moses spoke in the hearing of all the assembly of Israel. Moses said, "Do you thus deal with the Lord, O foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father, who bought you? Has He not made and established you?" (Deut. 32:6, NKJV). Likewise, Isaiah most certainly would not agree with your assessment. Isaiah wrote (about 500 years prior to the incarnation of Christ), "Doubtless You are our Father, Though Abraham was ignorant of us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, O Lord, are our Father; Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name" (Isaiah 63:16, NKJV). Likewise, Genesis and the Psalms reveal that the ancient Hebrews understood that "God the Father" is also present in the person of the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:1-2; Psalm 51:11). Furthermore, the ancient Hebrews understood that a Messiah was to come. The prophet Isaiah foretold the coming of the Son of God, that He would be born of a virgin, and that He would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us" (Isaiah 7:14). Ancient Hebrews would never have agreed with the radical monotheism of Islam, nor would they have agreed that the Quranic Allah of Mohammad was/is one and the same as the O.T. God of Abraham, nor should we do so today. Like I said above, the very way that the ancient Jews, early Christians, and Zoroastrians understood and defined God and the Islamic understanding and definition of Allah are actually mutually exclusive and cannot be reconciled. Thus, there really are no "fellow believers" with Islam except for other Muslims.

    [ February 06, 2003, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
     
  13. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    No. See my post immediately above this one.

    It must nice to be able to know when to use the Historical/literal method of interpretation and when to eisegete (read into the biblical text) to support CC dogma that is not found in Scripture. Anyway, the Bible is clear as to the identity, nature, and essence of the Triune God. There is nothing worng with using the New Testament to support the argument that I am advancing because Mohammad did not invent Islam until the 7th Century A.D. (well beyond the NT period).

    He used teachings that he learned from his contact with Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, and from the from of original monotheism that existed in Arabia. See my post on the pre-Islamic Religion of Mecca on this forum.

    Yes, but if you are going to use an analogy at least try to make it a good one and attempt to follow said analogy to its logical conclusions before you use it.

    It goes beyond a simple rejection of the Triune God. It starts there and then everything about the Allah of Mohammad begins to contradict the revealed nature, essence, character, and identity of Yahweh God.

    Yes. And no it is not a non sequiter. We can get there if you will but follow your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion. If you say that a god is "eternal, infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, uncreated, the first Mover, the uncaused cause, the Creator of heaven and earth," but you fail to accept all the other attributes that God has revealed about Himself in the Bible then you are not worshipping the same God of the Bible. Thus, say we believe in this god that you have described and we call him "Allah" we have not simply misidentified Yahweh God we have created, made up, a different god. However, because we really believe that our god is the one true god we can reject the biblical Yahweh God and still be worshipping the one true God. Hence, someone else may say I really believe that god is "eternal, infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, uncreated, the first Mover, the uncaused cause, the Creator of heaven and earth;" however, I think he is called "Bling" and so I am goning to worship the one true God named "Bling." Now my holy book, "the Hopsaid," says that I must sacrifice every third born child from every family the follows "Bling...." Do you see where it goes when you depart from the biblical Yahweh God?

    Nope.

    [ February 06, 2003, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
     
  14. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Bibleboy,

    You haven't convinced me.

    You wrote, "If you say that a god is "eternal, infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, uncreated, the first Mover, the uncaused cause, the Creator of heaven and earth," but you fail to accept all the other attributes that God has revealed about Himself in the Bible then you are not worshipping the same God of the Bible."

    How many Gods can fit the job description of eternal, infite, onmipresent, omnipotent, uncreated, the uncasued cause, the Creator, the first Mover, etc.?

    There can be only one.

    The Muslims reject further revelation of this one God, which is to say that they reject what he has said about himself and his essence/nature. Rejecting Revelation and continuing to believe in the only God that could possibly exist as known through reason alone is in no way believing in antoher God.

    The error that the Muslims commit is the rejection of further revelation. If they were certain that the revelation came from the only God that could exist, they would accept it. Because they see the message as an impossibility (how could the infinite become finite? how could God be three in one?), they reject the message.

    There can only be one reality, the Muslims recognize this, and they worship that Reality, who is Reality. In fact, it is for this reason that they reject the Trinity (like the Jews) - because they are so dead set in believing in the one God who alone could even be God because there is only one.

    in Christ,

    Carson
     
  15. Rakka Rage

    Rakka Rage New Member

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    there is a picture of him kissing it here

    http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ394.HTM
     
  16. Rakka Rage

    Rakka Rage New Member

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    Catechism of the Catholic Church

    841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
     
  17. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    there is a picture of him kissing it here

    http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ394.HTM
    </font>[/QUOTE]Where have you been?

    As has been already pointed out, what you have is a picture of a green book.

    How do you know what book it is?
     
  18. Rakka Rage

    Rakka Rage New Member

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    "Here is a photo of the pope at the end of an audience with Patriarch Raphael I of Iraq, where the pope "bowed" to the Muslim holy book, The Koran, presented to him by the delegation."
    http://www.garykah.org/html/popekoran.htm
     
  19. The_Narrow_Road

    The_Narrow_Road New Member

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    "With eyes they do not see. With ears they do not hear."
     
  20. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    "Here is a photo of the pope at the end of an audience with Patriarch Raphael I of Iraq, where the pope "bowed" to the Muslim holy book, The Koran, presented to him by the delegation."
    http://www.garykah.org/html/popekoran.htm
    </font>[/QUOTE]"Chaldean Catholic Patriarch Raphael Bidawid"

    Are you aware that Patriarch Raphael is the leader of Chaldean Catholics?

    Your source apparently doesn't.

    Why would you believe that they got anything else right?

    You really should check your sources at least a little. It may save you some future embarassments.
     
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