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Will Calvin be in heaven?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 19, 2006.

  1. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    I read the whole story in Bainton's Hunted Heretic, (the most indepth, neutral recunting of the story I could find) and some of the stuff posted above, don't remember seeing. Like him being into astrology, or whatever. Or him being some political figure trying to take over and overthrow govts. (though I did hear of some of this elsewhere, probably calvinist defenses). He was trying to convince the world of his doctrines, and he believed both state Church systems (Catholic and Protestant) were false. Many of us today agree with that.

    He may have been a bit "arrogant", and lacked tact in his approach to the authorities, but Calvinj and the others were far worse (being they had the power). Calvin kept presuming that he needed to be "won to the Lord", and had no sense that maybe some more of the "Catholic" doctrines and traditions they still maintained, were wrong. If some were, then maybe others too; hence the Zwinglians and Anabaptists. And while some of his doctrines were a bit strange (particularly his concept of Christ "living in us", which was taken straight from the ECF's); still, the "horrid blasphemies" he was executed on primarily were the Trinity and infant baptism. The latter most of us agree with today. Even on the Trinity, his position matched that pretty much of the ECF's, esp. Hippolytus, Irenaeus and Tertullian. Rather than three eternal "Persons", he basically had one single being, God the Father, with the Son and Spirit proceesing from Him. At first, he was a bit more adoptionistic (The Word was united to the human Christ), but later changed that to say the Word was Christ. He was ultimately killed for his prayer to "the Son of the Eternal God", rather than "the Eternal Son of God". We know that as part of the Godhead, the Son is eternal, but that term was not used in scripture, yet Son of the eternal" is. So basically, he was killed, not for blaspheming God's word, but rather going against the fourth century Nicene Creed (which itself was questioned by many bishops who signed it, and still acknowledged that the Son and Spirit generate and proceed from the father, rather than the Father being "begotten" along with them from something else). They were so used to seeing scripture and God through those creeds, it seems as if the creeds had been elevated to the status of God's Word, and even then, they may not have understood them as they were originally intended. Also, the Catholic doctrine of infant baptism, and state Church, which they also similarly bitterly attacked verbally and often persecuted the Anabaptists over.

    To me, all of those Reformers, while restoring some essential truth the RCC had buried, still had a lot of the old Catholic (corrupt institutional state Church) darkness, that it would take some more time for later Protestants to gradually clean up. I can't judge whether the'll be in Heaven, but if judged on his own standards, it wouldn't look good for him. He himself taught that God gives "reprobates" a false faith so they can still be lost after thinking they were saved. He himself was led into the ministry by threats of hellfire from Farel. (stuff like that was supposed to be predestined, wasn't it, but through the "God works His will through us" clause, they were able to still use it to try to scare people into what they thought was God's will). Do we see what kind of mindset did all of these people have? It was not good at all, and thankfully; God has led the Christian world back into more truth than that.

    We need to be careful when we say "don't dare look at them through 20th century mindset", because this is moral relativism and situational ethics, which we condemn in the modern non-Christian world! When people today claim adultery homosexuality and abortion are OK because times have changed, we scream at them. But whom does God expect to know better? God's Word was the same regardless of what century it was, and funny how they used the Old Testament so much for stuff like that, when otherwise they claimed it was "puerile instruction" to the Israelites.
    What's scary, is when conservatives today defend the 16th century situationally, as "pre-modern", "pre-enlightenment", and then condemn the modern world and the Enlightenment as Western civilization's "turn from God", which actually suggests the way they did things back then was right!:eek:
     
  2. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    That's why it is not up to us. Thankfully! God's ways are not our ways. There are a lot of things that don't make a lot of sense to us because we are finite creatures that can't completely understand the Infinite Creator!

    That's about the saddest thing I have ever read from you :( Why would you desire anyone to end up in hell?

    Can you provide the Scripture reference for this claim?
     
  3. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Calvin bashers are as cross eyed as my cat with a fly on her nose

    Calvin haters on this board, at least, don't really hate Calvin, unless they are psychotic and psychologically imbalanced to hate someone they have not even seen in person or met.
    They don't hate Calvin the man. They hate Calvin's soteriology.
    They hate the Doctrine of Grace, a.k.a. TULIP, a.k.a. Calvinism.
    They hate to think that Calvin might be right and in line with Paul's, and Peter's and Christ's teaching: that there is such a thing as election unto salvation, besides the other elections unto.
    They hate to think that God is in total control even of man's ability to respond to God's call and their ability to Godly repentance.
    They hate to think that God might possibly be absolutely sovereign in all things amd over all things.
    That's the long and short of Calvin bashing, as I see it.
     
  4. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    That's not even what's being discussed here. Others believed that stuff, from its originator Augustine, to the other Reformers, and people many love like Spurgeon and Edwards; but they have not received quite the heat Calvin has over the issue of this execution.
     
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If he put his faith in Christ alone, he is in Heaven.
     
  6. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    Why do you say this? It does not seem to add up with what Christ says, "But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it" (Matthew 7:14)

    I find this to be an amazingly sad post. Do you not realize the depth of your own sinfulness? You cannot understand the grace of God until you truly understand the depth of your own sin.
     
  7. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Thanks webdog. And this is the case for all of us.

    Hello Eric,

    I agree. The movement was not done in one day. It was the goal of luther to reform the Church, not start a new Church. The reformers came out from under a faith where they were told what to think and that the Pope was the final word. To only ask.."but why must we believe this way, if its not in the Bible"...could place you in line for the next burning. Reformers had only begin to think on their own. You see this in some parts of the faith they held on to. This of course does not make it right but on the other hand we can not brand them as unsaved.

    To put someone to death...how does God see this. As it turns out, God has always left this to the powers setup by man. This was done all the time in the OT. It was the nation in control that did this. We do not see this in the early church for the early church had no power in any nation. In Calvins day, it was the law of the land that placed people in the fire. Praise God, In the good oh USA we have no such law.

    I have asked a few times if others have read Ecclesiastes. Solomon of course wote the book. I'm sure that those that hold that Calvin should not be read, will not hold Solomon to the same standards.

    1 Kings 11:1-14
    1 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
    2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
    3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
    4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
    5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
    6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
    7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
    8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
    9 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
    10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
    11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
    12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.
    13 Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.
    14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.
    ***********

    He had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
    He continued to accrue sexual “partners” as a collector would collect stamps or baseball cards.
    Deut. 17:16-17 explicitly states that kings are not to multiply wives, horses and money. Solomon disobeyed God on all these points repeatedly.

    Solomon did “evil in the eyes of the Lord.” (Verse 6) This is the same evil that Judah, Nadab, Baasha, Omri, Jehoram, Ahaziah, Ahab, and others committed in idolatry before God.

    He set up foreign gods and worshipped them instead of the one true God.
    He setup shrines to other gods that they may worship them in Israel. This pagan deity worship is expressly forbidden all through the Old Testament.

    There is more bad wrote of Solomon then good in the Bible. He placed a heavy tax on the people and used this money on his own sins.

    So I ask ...should we read Ecclesiastes? Or should we remove it from the Bible?

    If repenting is the key...we can find no where in the Bible stating Solomon repented of these and other sins. Is Solomon in heaven? Will you use the same standards to judge Solomon as you do others?

    Solomon wrote a few books in the Bible. I bring up Ecclesiastes for I love the book and also in it we see our only hint that Solomon may have been saved. But...it falls way short of repenting.

    So I ask ...should we read Ecclesiastes? Or should we remove it from the Bible?

    OR

    Do we us the words he wrote, and leave Solomons sins to God?

    There are some that do not think Solomon had faith in a holy God. There is a classic picture of Solomon in which his hands out to his side. Both hands are being pulled on. One hand showing he wanted to go into the ways of the world..and the other God asking Him to follow Him. I was going to post this without my thoughts on this. But I will express them. I think Solomon was saved..I sure hope he was. If not..the wises man became the biggest fool. Like wise...Even if you do not hold to the doctrines of grace as Calvin wrote, there are so many other things he wrote that would seem that he was indeed saved. Yet...salvation is in between God and John. Like Solomon, if he did not have faith in God, he was a big fool. But I have no reason to think he did not.




    In Christ...James
     
    #27 Jarthur001, Jun 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2006
  8. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    And all this time, I thought it would be because he was predestined to be there.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

    Ed
     
  9. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    That was good Ed, I give you 5 stars for that. :laugh: :laugh: :wavey:
     
  10. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Calvin actually urged the magistrates against burning Servetus. Lets keep in mind too that Servetus was not saved since he was an anti-trinitarian.

    Why wouldn't Calvin be in heaven, you can't loose your salvation, even if you kill some one.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Eric, an excellent post with an abundance of well thought out points. I for one would like to thank you for the effort you put into that post. It is a post I will refer to many times I am sure. Salute!
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: This is an interesting observation. When I got saved I had not even given any Trinitarian doctrine the least attention. I might as well had been ‘anti,’ because it was all GK to me. You make a view, obviously in agreement to your ideas, a condition of salvation. I must have missed that verse.

    I am not sure that even today I would agree with you on the issue of the Trinity. With what you said about killing someone and still making it in, everything and anything you say is automatically suspect with me.
     
  13. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    4HIS Glory,
    Lets keep in mind that you dont have a clue who is saved and who isnt. You arent God.
     
    #33 saturneptune, Jun 20, 2006
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  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Calvin haters?? Calvin bashers?? I have tried to read every post and I have heard not one comment that would fit your words. Try addressing the ideas fairly that he taught, and the decisions to kill another human being fairly. Nobody is bashing him, we are just trying to look at the fact as they really were in light of Scripture and the lives we must lead to enter the kingdom. From all appearances, your post is the only one I have heard bashing anyone, with your ‘hate’ filled sentences.
     
    #34 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2006
  15. 2BHizown

    2BHizown New Member

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    Bottom line, Christ died to save sinners!
    Thats the murderers, prostitutes, thieves, gossips, hate mongerers and such!

    The physician doesnt come to heal the well but the sick, the condemned, that they might go free!

    Thankfully its all by God's grace that anyone at all is saved because everyone deserves death for being a sinner, Calvin, you, me and all else!!
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Sure He did, but he does not leave them in their sin. He cleanses the heart and makes them clean and whole as they fulfill His conditions of repentance and faith. We as believers are not murderers, thieves or blasphemers. If we still are, we are still in our sins.
    ”1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”
    “1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
    1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
    Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    There are many other passages expounding on the life of the believer as in direct opposition to the sinner. I close with this one. 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
     
  17. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Who among us would keep someone as a member of our church who had just burned someone at the stake? Is there any here or would we all withdraw fellowship from such a person? If Calvin were here today and did such a thing would we continue to fellowship him?
     
  18. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    In this day? no. In this day it is not part of the law of the land.

    In that day it was the law of the land.
     
  19. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    James;
    I guess the question is then was it God's law then and now. what you think?
     
  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Today it is the law of the land allows you to kill your baby, practice homosexuality, or commit adultery. I fail to follow your logic.

    You need to go back and read the great post by Eric B. today.
     
    #40 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2006
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