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Will- Is there not a cause?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Dec 23, 2010.

?
  1. No.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Yes.

    90.0%
  3. Not that simple- I will explain

    10.0%
  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    He DOES control all decisions- how does that contradict synergistic reprobation?
     
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Apply this law to reprobation as well, then! If God causes all decisions, He causes all decisions...even the ones where man rejects God.
     
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    He's the cause of rejection, He doesn't "work together" with man. You said as much in your law of contradiction.
     
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No, no.
    The idea of working with man does not contradict the idea that God is the cause of it at all.
     
  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I do- consistently.
     
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...yet it does in regards to salvation? :confused: You're making my head spin!

    I think the casual reader to this site will see the dire inconsistency in that position.
     
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If you did, you couldn't have reprobation being synergistic but salvation being monergistic. That violates the very law you support.
     
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I won't be back on here for a few days (I'm sure you are all jumping for joy:))...so Merry Christmas everyone!
     
  9. BobinKy

    BobinKy New Member

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    The point of my two questions:

    What is the cause of the existence of God?

    What is the cause of the choices of God?​

    Is to bring the discussion to the attributes of God.

    I think, in a nutshell, the following can be said about theological perspective and attributes of God.

    Calvinism sees the will of God.

    Arminianism sees the love of God.​

    And from these different shell halves (if you will), all of the theology differences rest.

    That is how I see the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism at its root or foundation.

    And as such, there will never be agreement between those at the opposite ends of both theologies.

    Many Baptist church histories have attempted to bring the best of both theologies together in doctrine, worship, song, and sermons. And these reconciliation attempts usually lead to additional splits and branching off.

    While these debates are fun and feisty--I do not see them going anywhere.

    ...Bob
     
  10. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    The casual reader is not a theologian I am sure. These are complex matters that require many many hours of study to grasp them.

    Synergism in Arminian ranks has to do with the idea that man's will is free just as it is or is freed up to choose Christ.

    The Calvinist rejects this idea of synergism. The Calvinist says, "No. Your will as you had it was not free, nor is it freed up, but it is changed."

    That is what we mean by monergistic salvation.

    But the fact of the matter remains that once God changes the will and that indeed that will that exists in a new heart and is bent toward God DOES cooperate with the grace of God- it can do no other.

    When the Calvinist speaks of monergism he does not deny that man does cooperate with God for salvation. But his heart is changed so that he WILL cooperate with God for salvation.

    The man cooperates by believing but God causes him to be willing to cooperate and causes him to believe.
     
  11. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    That is, IMO, not an accurate representation of the tensions.

    Calvinists understand that the highest good in the universe is the GLORY of God. They also understand that God must always be in pursuit of that which is the highest good. Therefore God does what he does in purusit of his glory.

    His love is bestowed that he might receive glory for his infinite love- it is not bestowed because the creatures he loves deserve it or are worthy of it.
     
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Personally, I don't usually respond to this ongoing debate calvin vs arminius soteriology.

    I can honestly say that I am a follower of neither.

    To me, to say that God is in any manner or in any way the cause and/or author of sin to any degree by any venue is repulsive and the arguments thereof are orwellian doublethink.

    On the other hand to say that we (mankind, collectively or individually) in any manner or in any way by any venue can effect our own salvation to any degree apart from the absolute sovereign power of God is equally as repulsive.

    This is not an indictment of those brethren holding to either view and that is not say that I might not find myself in either camp at some time in the future. I have presently chosen indecision which I suppose is not so good in the eyes of some.

    For now, I am caught in what I see as the great gulf fixed between the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man concerning salvation.
    But I am content to be here because He is with me and He knows my limitations.

    NKJV Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.​

    This is what I/we can do.

    Proverbs 3
    5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
    6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
    7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
    8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.​

    There are other conflicts between the calvin and arminus views which I cannot bridge with the Scripture.

    There are also personal objections to pet doctrines in each view which I am simply unable to reconcile with Scripture.

    I am however able to fellowship with either camp (and others camped along the way somewhere between the two), assuming of course that they have the indwelling Spirit.

    Here is what I do know (and probably all of us as well): Christ has transformed my life and the Spirit witnesses to my spirit that I am a child of God.

    Also "...whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely".

    God's blessings to all in this our season of joy.

    HankD
     
    #52 HankD, Dec 23, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  13. moral necessity

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    A thought that might help in regards to "reprobation":

    I Peter 2:7,8 - "The stone which the builders rejected, this became the very corner stone," and "a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense;" for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

    Note how man is the immediate cause, yet God is the mediate cause.

    Here's an article to illustrate the difference, and to touch upon the idea of "evil". http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5445
     
    #53 moral necessity, Dec 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2010
  14. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    God elects the reprobate, as he does the elect. Yet man is fully responsible as well. This is a tension that many try to eliminate, by twisting the Bible, and ignoring the scriptures.

    Man is FULLY responsible for everything that he does. he is fully responsible for his sin.

    Yet God is FULLY in control, and every single thing that happens, is what he desires; otherwise He would have stopped it, as He is fully capable of doing.
     
  15. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    The issue is not an issue of choice. That is a huge misunderstanding. The issue is an issue of order.

    Someone must be the final arbiter. There is no other way an orderly universe could exist. The bible declares that God is sovereign and ruling over everything. God, then, must be this final arbiter. The bible also declares that "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." So, what God would do God always determined to do, even before He spread the starry sky.

    So, you have a universe where, from our perspective, an infinite number of things could have taken place. People could have existed at a different time and a different place. Outcomes could have been different. People who died young might have lived to old age and vice versa. In other words, imagine a circle composing all things that could have been. In this circle you have things like Assyria conquering Jerusalem, the Jews entering Canaan immediately after receiving the law rather than 40 years later, etc. Things that could have been but weren't. Then you have another circle composing all things that have been, are, and shall be. The question is, how did things go from the first circle to the second. Someone had to make such a decision. Someone had to determine what would happen. That someone must be God. This must be the case because, again, He has determined all His actions from before the world began. He determined that Assyria would not take Jerusalem, and He determined such before the world began. Thus, we see other actions fall out as a result of that determination. Hezekiah is king, Isaiah is prophet, the Assyrians blaspheme God, etc. It's not a matter of choice but of order.

    God determined what would be before the world began. That doesn't make God the author of my sins. God didn't make me sin. But God did determine what He would do, what He would prevent, what He would allow. He determined to allow Hitler to do what He did. There's not telling how many similar madmen He determined to stop before they got started. God isn't the author of my choices, but He is the arbiter. God placed me here, in this place, at this time, in this setting and that has had a huge impact on my life. Had I been born in Arabia, I'd be totally different. A man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps. God had determined He would use me to preach to His people. Thus He has arranged these things in my lifetime to lead me down this path. Again, the issue is order. God made a determination, and all other things lined up with that determination. God didn't violate my ability to choose. That's a misunderstanding of things.
     
  16. Steven2006

    Steven2006 New Member

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    Lev 1:3 'If his offering is a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD.
    Lev 1:4 'Then he shall put his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him.
     
  17. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Lev 1:3 "If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish. He shall bring it to the entrance of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD.
    Lev 1:4 He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.


    No free will here. The Hebrew word means "pleasure," or, ironically, "desire." This is exactly what we are saying. The man is choosing to give this offering because of a desire that he has been given, not arbitrarily.

    :tonofbricks:
     
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Sin is not God's work yet it exist. The only men to be the work of God is Adam and Christ. the rest of us are procreated. We are not His work.

    For any of this to be so all men would have to be the work of God.
    Is this what you're saying
    What IMO you have just described is fatalism. If this is true why do anything it's already been determined before hand it'll happen regardless. What you are really saying is God not only lives the life of the Christian but also all natural men. That man isn't responsible for anything he does. God is, after all He determined it to be. This sounds beautiful to the natural man. It let's him off the hook of responsibility.
    MB
     
  19. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Not at all. God is fully in control, and not one thing happens that God does not want to happen. Yet man is still fully responsible.

    Quit trying to fit God into your neat little box; He is God. He does not conform to our will, nor our ability to reason.
     
  20. Steven2006

    Steven2006 New Member

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    Not exclusively, it also means "(own, self, voluntary) will, as...(what) would"


    Here are a few commentaries I read on this verse. I am not certain it is as clear cut as you state.



    Jamieson, Fausset, & Brown
    If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord--The directions given here relate solely to voluntary or freewill offerings--those rendered over and above such, as being of standing and universal obligation, could not be dispensed with or commuted for any other kind of offering ( Exd 29:38 Lev 23:37 Num 28:3, 11-27 , &c.).


    Matthew Henry (Lev. 1:3)
    2. The owner must offer it voluntarily.


    Geneva Study Bible
    1:3 If his offering [be] a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the c tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.


    J. Vernon McGee
    “He shall offer it of his own voluntary will.” May I say, this is free will with a vengeance. The Lord Jesus said, “if any man thirst, let him come…” . This is an lll-inclusive invitation to the human family. None are excluded except those who exclude themselves.
     
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