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Will- Is there not a cause?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Dec 23, 2010.

?
  1. No.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Yes.

    90.0%
  3. Not that simple- I will explain

    10.0%
  1. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    It only refers to will in relation to desire. The word "free" is nowhere in the Hebrew, nor is it implied. Just because an offering is "voluntary" does not mean it is a desire free from outside influence.
     
  2. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Hear here :) (I didnt know which one to go with)...Very well said. Thank you for your honesty.
     
  3. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    :sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep:
     
  4. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Amy, you might need to do a sleep study and perhaps use a CPAP. :)
     
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    HA!!!! good one!

    It's just gotten so that Luke's rantings put me to sleep. :sleep: Whoops!
     
  6. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    I use one now, it has made a remarkable difference in my ability to get sleep, sleep that I never realized I was missing, aside from running out of energy in mid-afternoon.
     
  7. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    My husband has used one for about 15 years. It has saved his life. At the time he started using it, his sleep study showed that he was breathing for a few seconds then he would completely stop for a minute or more. He wasn't over weight or anything. The doc said he was born with a narrow trachea.
     
  8. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Not sure how these "specialties" will be dealt with in regards to all the changes with medical care in this country. Kudos to your husband for doing this. It was a rather 'fearful" experience for me, worried that my sleep video might end up on Youtube, as many of my former students work in the area hospitals.
     
  9. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I don't have a problem with the TERM free will- I have a problem with the idea that many hold to concerning it.

    It is the illogical notion that there is NO cause for choices men make.

    That is indefensible.

    And if there is a cause, then we must determine who ultimately controls the cause.

    What we will find if we will just use our God given ability to think is that GOD ultimately controls the causes behind choices.

    What does that lead us to understand?

    That God worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will (Ephesians 1:11) and that "Of him and through him and to him are ALL things" (Romans 11:36)
     
  10. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Only ONE person did not vote that choices have causes.

    So what are we to conclude from this fact?


    Who controls the CAUSES?
     
  11. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    Please let me know who causes a man to choose to commit murder? Who causes a man to commit rape? Who causes a man to molest a child?
     
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    When a man works and acts according to his desires he is working or acting freely.

    Nonetheless, HIS DESIRES ARE FASHIONED BY EXTERNAL FORCES. Do you understand this?

     
    #72 Luke2427, Dec 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2010
  13. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting that in these situations you say a man can act freely.

    So who gives a man the desire to murder, rape, and molest?
     
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Adam.

    You didn't answer my question. A conversation requires that each party respond to each argument the other party makes not just ignore the ones he doesn't want to address and make other arguments of his own.
     
  15. Steven2006

    Steven2006 New Member

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    Luke,

    By the points you are making here are we to assume that you believe that since a gay person has a "desire" for the same s*x, that he/she doesn't have any free will in their sin? If someone in you church came to you with this issue would you tell them that they are made that way, it is not their free choice?
     
  16. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    So anything good a man does, that desire comes from God? Anything bad a man does, that desire comes from Adam?
     
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Let me tell you what I find happens in these important discussions on baptistboard.

    One will make an argument.

    Another will respond ONLY to the parts he chooses and leave the rest alone. And then he will make an argument and one will only respond to what he wants to respond to, etc...

    I would like to discuss this with you, but let me make a recommendation that I believe will help us.

    Let's write our posts in paragraphs or lines separated by spaces. Then let's respond to EACH paragraph or line each time.

    I will begin.

    You asked would I counsel someone that it is NOT their free choice.

    NO. But I understand free choice differently than I think most Arminians and non-reformed.

    I actually believe in free will- but only if it is defined as Augustine, Calvin, Luther and Edwards defined it. The mind choosing; the freedom to do what you want. Free will is the ability to choose to do what you want to do.

    The PROBLEM is that the "want" is corrupt for the unregenerate.

    The other problem is that the "want" is determined by numerous factors.

    Now, do you not agree that there is a reason behind every choice anyone makes?

    That reason or reasons causes them to make the choices they make, right?

    Now, answer this question, who controls those causes?
     
    #77 Luke2427, Dec 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2010
  18. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you just answer the man's question?
     
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Matt, I am not JUST going to answer YOUR questions. You are going to answer mine if we are to have a conversation.

    Do you think that choices are made spontaneously or do choices have reasons?

    Is there a reason why one chooses what he chooses?
     
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I did Matt, why don't YOU answer questions?
     
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