Will there be sinless people in hell?

Since I'm not clear what you are saying, I see that in v. 17 all die in the same manner Adam died (sin) and in v. 18 all live in the same manner Christ lives (faith in Christ).

 

Good point.

Yes, this is the witness of Scripture, and I can't go against that.

But in the context of Romans, I can't come to terms with that Romans 2 reference. I know what you're saying, but Paul was making a point that he resolves from Rom 3:9ff, pointing out that all are guilty of sin and can only be remedied in Christ (3:21ff).

 

That is what I see too. :thumbs:

 

The reason why I don't believe Paul is teaching universalism is because of this expression:

"how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" (v.17b).

 

Is the Church part of the elect?

2Ti 2:10 (KJV) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The key word being ALSO. In addition to... I think he is laboring that Israel may also receive the same gift as the Church which is salvation. I don't see this verse saying the Church is part of the elect.

 

I agree TC, my understanding of Universalism is a belief that all men will eventually be saved. Paul is clearly saying the gift was offered to all men but not all will accept. If all don't accept then all won't be saved. This doesn't fit my view of universalism.

 

Now, I see where you're coming from.

Peter speaks of the elect church in Babylon (1 Pet 5:13).

The Lord told Paul that he had many people in Corinth (Acts 18:10);

then,

we read this in 1 Cor 1:24:

"But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (emphasis mine).

Not just Jews but Gentiles are called, elect of God.

The Thessalonians who were predominated Gentiles were called the elect of God (1 Thess 1:4).

2Ti 2:10 (KJV) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The key word being ALSO. In addition to... I think he is laboring that Israel may also receive the same gift as the Church which is salvation. I don't see this verse saying the Church is part of the elect.[/QUOTE]

 

No way God can be "unjust for He Is Just". Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Most do not believe this so they turn down the free gift. The person can only blame themselves. Today the Bible tells us God is reconciling the world to Himself, of those who will. If not they leave this world as they entered, and that is as a sinner.

No person while living is sinless, unless they are a "saved sinner". In Christ Jesus we are dead to the law, and dead to sin, even while we live. It is in Him we are to live, and we find this in the gospel of Paul where we find "through faith", and the Body of Christ. No other Apostle offers us the "Body Church" that will greet the "kingdom Church" as they go marching in.

The sinner in hell is there as their sins remain, for they refused their one and only sacrifice for their sins. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or go to…. SO Simple, but man steps in to complicate the process. It is that SIMPLE; and then we are to work out our own salvation. We have freedom in Christ Jesus, and only make our lives miserable with the Do, and Don't approach. This puts in the position of having to"work" to remain saved, which puts us on dangerous ground.

If you have been justified through the faith of Jesus Christ, you can believe what you wish. You are at least in the "Kingdom".

I don't believe you quite understand your salvation, i.e. to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation. We are destined to die as we chose to, i.e. the parents of every soul born listened to that toxic serpent, but only one of them believed and was deceived. Then why did Adam die if he was not deceived? Because he did what the woman asked of him, and he did also eat.

Ever wonder why the Baptist (many are now falling by the wayside to be "in step with the world") believe what Paul says about women preachers in the church? Very few seem to know the example given in scripture, but many still believe what Paul says, and that in itself, should be enough for those of Faith. The reason started in the beginning, and is staring us in the face right above. One that can be deceived (by Satan) should not Pastor a Christian church. If the church does not stick by their guns, the whole church is open to "deception", as their head is open to "deception". Somewhere along the line she will offer "forbidden fruit in spirit or body", and the head of the body, the poor "carnal man Adam" in love of the weaker sex will support her, and turn their back on God.

 

People have been using two different "theological terms" around here lately to mean the same thing, and they are not related. There is a big difference between "Universalism" and "Universal Atonement". :thumbs:

 

I've always taken the verse in Peter to imply same or common faith as opposed to the Elect as in Israel. Others would dispute you findings because of the use of Babylon. I guess now I need to pray on the definition of "elect" as it seems we use the term in different ways.

 

Well, the way I understand the term elect is that it is not only used of Israel but also of the church.

The election of the church doesn't nullify the election of Israel (Act 15:15-18; Rom 11:25-26).

Paul uses election in the theology of Ephesians to refer to both Jews and Gentiles indiscriminately (1:4, 5; 2:13-22).

But I do admire your decision to pray concerning these matters. :thumbs:

 

you still haven't answered my question. If ALL are sinners because of Adam can't ALL be saved through Christ (The Second Adam)?

 

The problem with this statement and all others like it i.e. "If Christ died for all, it would be unjust of God to demand payment for sin from Christ and then again from the lost indivdual" is this.

1.) Who are you and/or I to dare to define for God what is "just" or "unjust". He does what He wants whether we like it or not, whether we approve of it or not...

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.​

God makes the rules and the rule is very simple: Christ died on the cross for all and for those who receive Him, He enpowers to become the sons of God. And those for whom He died who do not receive Him are not enpowered to become the sons of God, but

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This is not a question of God being just or unjust but what He wants.

In fact it is not His justice that we His children have experienced but His grace and mercy. Those who do not receive Him will experience His justice.

HankD​

 

I never said ALL will be saved. I said ALL can be saved.

 

You're right. The remedy is in Christ. We agree that all have sinned. We agree that all deserve eternal punishment. To those who hear the good news and believe, the remedy is applied. But it cannot be applied to those who have never heard about it.

Yet, they stand condemned. On what basis? Rejection of Christ? No, because they didn't reject Christ. Breaking the law? Yes, but not the Mosaic law, because they never heard of it either. So, it must be the violaton of his own sense of rght and wrong, his conscience (the law written on his heart?). He couldn't even keep a moral code he developed himself. That's my take on "he is a law unto himself."

 

Tom, this side of the cross all that I can go on is the plain witness of Scripture, and this is what Scripture has revealed:

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day" (John 6:37-39, TNIV, emphasis mine).

Jesus says that ALL that the Father has given to him WILL COME TO HIM and he WILL LOSE NONE.

Outside of what Jesus says, Tom, I really don't know what else to say.

At any rate, I'lll this: God has a definite plan, and he is moving it to its consummation.

 

TC,

Hi good brother. I hope all is well. I have a question. As I read your post, something came to me and I wanted your take on this:

At the end of the post, you wrote this: (John 6:37-39, TNIV, emphasis mine)

My question is this. What if the emphasis was changed? What if we read it like this: "All that the Father gives me will come to me, AND whoever comes to me I will never drive away".

I am not promoting Calvinism or Arminianism, I am just wondering if what we choose to emphasise may influence the way we see certain scriptures?

 

Good point!

The emphasis I laid was based on a point I was responding to.

At any rate, If we were to put the emphasis where you put it, it only confirms the first half of the verse. Let me paraphrase:

"Because the Father has given to me a number of people, when those people are drawn by the Father and are coming to me, I will never drive them away."

 

TC, your use of this verse would make it conflict with;

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

And I don't believe the Bibl can conflict, I think one of us is viewing one of these verses askew. And since I'm always right (just ask me)... :thumbs: :BangHead: