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Will you immunize your children?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Jeremiah, Dec 24, 2002.

  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    To correct the info, most circumcision is done within 1 day after birth, without anesthesia or injections.

    Most people who request their sons to be circumcised have it done for preventative reasons (which is why we vaccinate). Also, the procedure has stistical risks (as does vaccination).

    So both are done for preventative reasons, and both have minimal health risks. Hence, my original question. How many people who are anti-vaccine would have their sons circumcised?
     
  2. Justified

    Justified New Member

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    If you train your children in the way they should go, then there should be nothing to worry about! [​IMG]
     
  3. jimslade

    jimslade Guest

    What was the average lifespan of someone a 100 years ago? maybe 40, gives you something to think about!

    [ December 28, 2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: jimslade ]
     
  4. TheOliveBranch

    TheOliveBranch New Member

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    What was the average diet 100 years ago? Mid winter they ate dried foods, some grains, or flour products. Fresh fruits and vegies were unheard of in the snowbelt. By springtime, health ran low, then the disease broke out. I even remember that when I was very young that the only time you saw a case of chicken pox was in the spring. THe same case for measles. Now my kids just got over the chicken pox, in the late fall. Whooping cough in the middle of the summer was unheard of. People didn't care about food groups and a balanced diet. They wondered where their next meal would come from.

    But there were still the people that lived long lives. And when you average out age, there were many babies that died from things like pneumonia, because they couldn't keep their children properly nourished. I don't think immunizations are keeping children alive.

    And if that average age expectancy is so great today, why is America being told that they are too fat, and their lives are being shortened because they are overweight? Do you honestly think we'd live longer if we were thin? Autism is on the rise, as is ADD and ADHD, Aids is running rampant, among several other diseases. WIll being thin stop this? Hepatitis has so many forms now that they'll probably run out of letters to add to the end. We are not a healthy group.

    We say that our children are fine after their shots. But noone has tested the long term effects, especially in multiple shots. I can't believe how many adults I've come across, since my kids have had the chicken pox, that have come down with them because they never had them as a child. How many adults will get measles, or whooping cough, or small pox? Do you realize that you have to continue receiving those shots for the rest of your life, and there is still no guarantee you will not get them?
     
  5. TheOliveBranch

    TheOliveBranch New Member

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    On the eighth day, God gave our bodies the ability to produce its own vitamin K. This is why circumcision was to be done on the eighth day, according to the Law. It is now a mandatory thing to give vitamin K to all babies in 47 states. If the mother does not sign a waiver before she enters the hospital, the child is given the shot, the parents are not told about this, nor are they asked to sign anything.

    Administration of vitamin K

    National Standard

    Insert from the Vitamin K Package

    The list goes on and on. Read for yourself how the drug industry tries to deny, cover-up, change the way it is administered, then state that the accusations are not true.

    [ December 29, 2002, 02:28 AM: Message edited by: TheOliveBranch ]
     
  6. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    You're missing my point, though. Circumcision is not a medical necessity. Additionally, studies in other countries that do not practice circumcision in a compulsory manner (the Netherlands, Germany, etc) demonstrate that there are ancillary medical benefits to not circumcising a male unless there's a necessity to.

    It was done biblically to dedicate a person to God. We as Christians don't follow rabbinnic law anymore, I thought.
     
  7. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    I don't immunize my son because it isn't necessary. We will do so when it is needed and his body is in a better position to accept it.

    My son was circumcised on the eighth day because his vitamin K level was highest then. He will also have a better and more healthy sex life (should he marry).

    That is not hypocrasy.
     
  8. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    So you had your son undergo a medical treatment to improve his sex life? Would you let your teenage daughter undergo breast implant surgery because larger breasts improve one's sex life?

    Who says that circumcised men have better sex lives? That's certainly not biblical, and it's not scientific. You don't immunize because you say it isn't necessary (which I don't argue). But circumcision isn't necessary either. Half of the men in the western world today aren't circumcised, and they can attest that they have very satisfying sex lives.

    [ December 29, 2002, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
     
  9. pdp27

    pdp27 New Member

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    Here is a page that links several articles about vaccines with subjects ranging from smallpox to autism to chickenpox.

    Mercola Dec 30th newsletter
     
  10. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Johnv, certain bacterial problems are found almost entirely in couples where the male is not circumcised. These problem are almost non-existent among circumcised males (including most of the mid-east for obvious reasons).
     
  11. pdp27

    pdp27 New Member

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    First off, here is an article outlining the benefits of circumcision(Circumcision info and benefits). Here is one interesting quote from the article, "The preputial sac has even been referred to by Dr Gerald Weiss, an American surgeon, as a ‘cesspool for infection’ "

    Circumcision is preventative, but the benefits are well known and the risks are small to nonexistent. Vaccines, on the other hand, are recently coming under fire for questionable safety and questionable effectiveness.

    One striking characteristic of the vaccine industry is their stubbornness in refusing to reexamine the necessity and safety of the currrent vaccine program. Instead more and more vaccines are being recommended to parents of newborns. Could this be because vaccines are a multi-billion dollar industry?

    Finally, It may be common for the procedure to be performed one day after birth in America, but that's a result of the stupid arrogance of the American Medical community. The earliest and best day to circumcise is the eighth day after birth(as outlined in the Bible, surprise, surprise).

    [Edited to correct my poor grammar]

    [ December 30, 2002, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: pdp27 ]
     
  12. MikeJ

    MikeJ New Member

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    From the CDC's info site with respect to potential side effects for smallpox vaccinations:

    "In the past, about 1,000 people for every 1 million people vaccinated for the first time experienced reactions that, while not life-threatening, were serious. These reactions included a toxic or allergic reaction at the site of the vaccination (erythema multiforme), spread of the vaccinia virus to other parts of the body and to other individuals (inadvertent inoculation), and spread of the vaccinia virus to other parts of the body through the blood (generalized vaccinia). These types of reactions may require medical attention. In the past, between 14 and 52 people out of every 1 million people vaccinated for the first time experienced potentially life-threatening reactions to the vaccine. Based on past experience, it is estimated that 1 or 2 people in 1 million who receive the vaccine may die as a result. Careful screening of potential vaccine recipients is essential to ensure that those at increased risk do not receive the vaccine."

    The prior info stated a potential death rate about 2 orders of magnitude too high.
     
  13. Refreshed

    Refreshed Member
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    My son was circumsized on the eighth day with anesthesia, without a vitamin K shot. He will not recieve immunizations.

    Again, how can circumsision be compared to immunization, which is injecting a mercury-based fluid directly into the blood stream (IV or IM), containing viruses or bacteria, dead, semi-dead, or alive?

    Hey, Jesus was circumsized.
     
  14. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    While it's true that bacteria reside in the moisture that resides under the foreskin, simple proper hygiene redces any negative effects to negligable amounts. Also, it should be noted that uncircumcised organs are self cleansing, just as the vagina is self cleansing. Yet the idea of circumcising women is unthinkable and barbaric. Again, there's no need to circumcise unless it becomes a problem. The overwhelming majority of intact males have no adverse health problems.

    The attitude still seems to be one of:
    circumcising boys to prevent possible problems is okay, while vaccinating children to prevent possible problems is not.
     
  15. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Johnv, let me put it this way:

    1. Circumcision can only have possitive effects.

    2. Immunizations can have both possitive and negative effects.
     
  16. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Circumcision is preventative, but the benefits are well known and the risks are small to nonexistent.

    That is one doctor's opinion. Dr Dean Edell, popular radio talkshow host, has said for years that continuous studies reported by the AMA show no significant advantage to circumcision over leaving a male intact.
     
  17. stubbornkelly

    stubbornkelly New Member

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    Are you sure you meant to say "only positive effects?" (emphasis mine)

    The possible negative effects of circumcision are several, including non-specific urethritis and meatal stenosis, not to mention higher likelihood of sexual problems later in life, which I would not consider inconsequential.

    Also, the health benefits of circumcision are slight, and have been refuted in recent years (oh, since the mid-80s).

    Back to your regularly scheduled immunization debate. [​IMG]

    [ December 30, 2002, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: stubbornkelly ]
     
  18. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Excessive bleeding is one of the two most frequent complications, after pain. Hemmorhage and/or infection occur after circumcision in up to 10% of patients.

    Common side effects of the procedure are:

    Skin tags -irregular bits of left over skin at the scar site.
    Skin Bridges which occur when the raw edge of the cut foreskin joins up with the glans. This can occur because when the foreskin is peeled away from the glans during circumcision, the glans surface becomes one large open wound, which permits the raw edge of the foreskin to join with it. The results range from aesthetic problems to painful erections and bowing and curvatures.

    Prominent scarring - which result from keloid formations at the incision. This is the most common physical complaint.

    Stitch tunnels - can arise when sutures are necessary to control bleeding. Small holes and loops of skin are a common result.

    Glans pitting - as the foreskin is peeled away from the glans preparatory to the circumcision, sometimes bits of the glans come off, leaving indentations in the glans.

    Other problems such as iatrogenic phimosis, granulomas and cysts (small benign tumors which are sometimes painful caused by foreign matter getting into the incision during the operation) have been reported.

    In a recent AMA published study, it was noted that there are more deaths each year from complications of circumcision than from cancer of the penis, which many feel curcimcision prevents.
     
  19. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Circumcision done right (there are procedures that are better than others) on the eighth day should be fine. Obviously, if the doctor is a moron, then problems will arise.
     
  20. stubbornkelly

    stubbornkelly New Member

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    So, is that your opinion on surgical side-effects in general, or just those as related to circumcision?
     
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