Wine and Grapejuice

While it doesn't matter whether you serve grape juice fermented or unfermented, corn bread and apple cider is unbiblical since it is in direct opposition ot the command of Christ, and since communion is not about remembering the slaves' labor. In communion we are to use unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine in remembrace of Christ.

 

Wow, I can't believe that there isn't anyone on hear saying that alcoholic beverages are the root of all evil!

Anyway, I agree with most of this thread.

As for cornbread and cider, I agree, that is directly opposed and what is worse is that it was used as a remembrance of slave labor.
We don't worship slaves from 150 years ago. We worship a savior who died for us and thus I would have to say that an Apple cider and corn bread "communion service remembering slave labor" is somewhere in between beinf improper and perhaps outright blasphemy.

That is my first reaction. Anyone have any further comments?

 

Gotta agree with ya there, Larry.

Christ is the reason, and only He should be the focus.

 

yes.

like many have said already, it depends. it depends on the church members, the culture, personal conscious, and other such things.

two thoughts though... i have a friend, born and bred baptist, who went to europe as a journeyman missionary. the area she was in had no established churches. when she went to a church with a friend while traveling they had the eucharist, using wine. my friend was so troubled by it (because of her upbringing as an "old school baptist") that she refused to partake. later she regreted it, because she knew how special the eucharist is and missed the christian community, and she passed up an opportunity to fellowship with the community in a special way. so her only chance in two years to partake of the eucharist with a community of christians, was wasted.
(and just for the record, i classify myself as an "old school baptist" so i'm not trying to say anthing bad there.)

another thought, that i heard from a friend...i don't remember what city, but somewhere in south Texas there is a church (non-baptist) whose denomination typically uses wine. well that church has decided to offer the option of wine or grape juice. (i'm not sure how they do it logistically) this was decided because they have a lot of recovering alcoholics and they did not want to cause them to be tempted in any way. i thought that was a really cool idea...although i don't think baptist churches will start offering wine as an option any time soon. =) (although there are a lot of baptist of whom i would love to have a picture of holding a shot glass of wine!)

 

Wow, I can't believe that there isn't anyone on hear saying that alcoholic beverages are the root of all evil!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

It doesn't have to be "said". It's already been written. You people just don't believe it.

 

To me, that would still seem like temptation... offering them a "choice"... just to let them know it's there if they want it. ?????

 

If there are people under the age of 21 in the service, would that be contributing to minors? And, as someone mentioned, you may have recovering alcoholics in a communion service, I think it would be wise to stick with grape juice.

 

Clearly, the fruit of the vine in the NT would have been alcohol wine, or else their would have been no need for the warning concerning being drunk with it. It is a whole nother matter as to whether it would be wise to use wine when sharing the Lord's Supper. There are too many issues, some have been stated here, ie. alcoholism and minors. There is no reason not to use grape juice when serving the Lord's Supper in the church. But, there are no biblical prohibitions against Christians drinking wine, just not being drunk with it.

Bro Tony

 

I enjoyed being the agent provocateur on this matter, and admit that that was part of my motive on the single occasion that I did deviate from the standard bread and wine at Communion. Let me assure all posters that it was Christ and His redemptive suffering that was remembered at that Communion service. We had thought about how the slaves' labor was redemptive, undeserved suffering, and then I brought the message home to proclaim that as human beings have suffered unjustly throughout history but have produced redemptive results, how much more (a fortiori argument, for you logicians) did the suffering of Christ redeem us.

Curious about the idea that using other elements contravenes the "direct command" of Christ. Do we really think that He would insist on particular substances?

 

Since it is a religious ritual, churches have a 1st amendment exemption.

 

Joseph M. Smith asked:

What does the Board family think of other substances for the Communion elements? Once, during a Black History Month Communion service, I had the deacons serve corn bread and apple cider, as remembrances of the products of the slaves' labor.

One, communion isn't about "remembrances of the products of the slaves' labor." That is a self-centred perversion of the ordinance. It is about remembrance of the shed blood and broken body of Christ on behalf of his Church, whether slave or free.

Two, Jesus chose wine because its red colour symbolized blood. (Wine was sometimes figuratively called "the blood of grapes"; see Gen. 49:11). Apple cider goes too far in divorcing the symbol and the thing symbolized.

 

I must not have read that book, or was just a post?

 

Proverbs 23:31-33 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

 

There are a few more.
There is an implication that wine is a good thing that must be used with caution. Verse after verse in the Bible talk about warnings but aslo many show the good uses too.

 

What is this talking about? Addiction and drunkeness, otherwise just "looking" at a glass of wine is condemned.

 

It would be better in preaching to confine your messages to Scripture rather than social issues. Since the slaves labor is in no way redemptive, and since it has nothing whatsoever to do with communion, it should have never been brought to the pulpit, much less in a communion observance.

 

Clearly we are not going to agree on this. Let me, however, without defending the matter of redemptive suffering on the part of human beings as a "type" of Christ's redemptive suffering, go to the other assertion: the Scripture speaks volumes to social issues. It speaks clearly to race, poverty, justice, and all kinds of things. It would be a truncated Gospel indeed if as a preacher I were to confine myself to a personalistic Gospel.

I well recognize that there are preachers who do nothing more than preach social issues, but that is not what I am advocating. I am calling for the kind of balance and broad reading of redemption that the Scripture speaks of.

 

Befor God

Anything you put befor God is a sin.The reason why Baptist preach against liquor is because some people don't know how to say"enough".:Fish:

 

Yes and no. Scripture makes clear that social justicer is always the product of hte gospel, not the purpose of it, nor something that can be attained without it. The reason there is social injustice is because people are not being obedient to Christ and following Christ. Therefore, the answer to social injustice is the gospel applied to people's lives. Seconldy, the focus of social issues in Scripture is the kingdom focus, not the church focus.

But none of that is really relevant since the issue is communion, and in communion we aer to remember Christ, not social justice, not the "redemptive suffering of slaves," whatever that is, not anything else but Christ. He alone is to be preached and worshipped. Communion is not about social justice.